LMII Glue Failure...again

As some may remember, a couple of years ago I did a series of bonding tests comparing LMI glue to Titebond red cap. I did a handful of different kinds of joints and clamping pressures and the LMI glue in those tests failed miserably, the joints giving way under light pressure.
Thinking it may have been a bad batch, a frozen batch, etc, I repeated the test from another batch with the same results.
Fast forward to the present. I had to place a small order with LMII and thought I'd give the glue another chance. Last time I tested the glue was in the Winter; now it is Summer, not that it matters much in Hawaii. I tested the Titebond and the LMII glue on both koa and spruce, all from the same board, preparing and clamped identically. This time however I waited for the glues to dry over night before checking the bonds. Again, the joints bonded with the LMI glue gay way under slight to moderate pressure, always breaking cleanly at the joint. The Titebond however was extremely tenacious, never breaking at the joint and always leaving lots of wood behind. In fact I had to use Vice-grips to try to break the bond on one Titebond test. It was a splintered mess when I was done.
My question...... To those of you who have success with the LMII glue, are there tricks to using it that are different from any other PVA glues? Or are you just buying into the hype? Has anyone done any actual bench testing with this stuff? I assume the glue I tested is fresh as it does not smell sour. (LMII says if the glue smells sour to use it around the household. Not even!)
And PLEASE, PLEASE, let's not turn this into a discussion involving other glue types! I'm only interested in why my LMII glue tests are failing and if anyone has really put it through a test.
Honestly, I'm over it at this point. Three strikes and they are out. I'm just thankful that I've tested it before using it on an actual instrument.

I mostly use hide glue these days but I still use the LMI too especially in winter when my shop is so cold. I haven't had any problems and after reading about your first experience with it I did some testing, nothing scientific but it satisfied me. I glued bracing material to scrap from a top, larger pieces end grain glued, stuff like that and it tore everything up really bad when I broke it apart. Really the wood failed before the glue. But, your experience really worries me! I'm going to test again.
I'm wondering if your humidity could be a factor but man, unacceptable regardless. I'm 20% on a humid day.

th

Could be the humidity, I tested it in my dirty room where the RH averages about 65%. Still, I tested it along side with the Titebond and it performed marvelously well compared to the LMII glue. Really, like day and night.

Chuck, if I were you, I'd get in touch with Chris Herrod at LMI; I'm sure he'll help you get to the bottom of the problem.

It's a mystery to me. I use LMI glue regularly and have had none of the problems you've encountered. In my strength tests, I found no significant difference between LMI white glue and Titebond Original, but it did seem to me that the LMI glue dried harder and clearer. I also find that the LMI glue is not as slippery as Titebond during clamping. My shop is humidity controlled to stay between 40% and 50% RH, which is easier for me to achieve in the summer than in the winter.

This sounds really unusual... however since they are out you have no further worries Chuck. I've just retired my hide glue for similar reasons - I simply cannot get on with all the fuss of it!

mzuch said:

It's a mystery to me. I use LMI glue regularly and have had none of the problems you've encountered. In my strength tests, I found no significant difference between LMI white glue and Titebond Original, but it did seem to me that the LMI glue dried harder and clearer. I also find that the LMI glue is not as slippery as Titebond during clamping. My shop is humidity controlled to stay between 40% and 50% RH, which is easier for me to achieve in the summer than in the winter.

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It may be harder than Titebond but it's not crystal hard. I expected it to chip off when removing squeeze-out with a chisel but it didn't. I let a small puddle dry on a yogurt cup lid and it's pretty flexible but less so than Titebond.
I only hope that this post serves as a reminder to people to test things in their environment using their methods and materials before simply accepting someone's word for it. Got it? Test. Test. TEST!

Rick Turner said:

Chuck, if I were you, I'd get in touch with Chris Herrod at LMI; I'm sure he'll help you get to the bottom of the problem.

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I did that a couple of years ago. They sent me a replacement batch. Same story. I had higher hopes with this batch two years later.
I don't mean to talk stink about LMII glue in general. Some builders love it so I'm afraid I'm alone in this sticky situation.

I'm with you Chuck - stick to what you know. I have been seriously thinking about a sound port in my latest project but I am strenuously resisting the urge to go there. When LMII glue first came out I had some shipped to the UK (when shipping costs did not exceed the purchase of goods!). Couldn't find any marked difference between it and Titebond. Still using Titebond.

We have put a couple of thousand of our Renaissance guitars and basses together with the LMI glue...kerfing, tops, backs to sides, etc...and no problem. We found it to be really great for our peghead scarfs on guitars and basses. We use HHG for center seams and braces...and no problem. So I just don't know... Too quick with too much clamp pressure?

Rick Turner said:

We have put a couple of thousand of our Renaissance guitars and basses together with the LMI glue...kerfing, tops, backs to sides, etc...and no problem. We found it to be really great for our peghead scarfs on guitars and basses. We use HHG for center seams and braces...and no problem. So I just don't know... Too quick with too much clamp pressure?

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I took clamping pressure into consideration. Some were put together with spring clamps, others were just weighted. I even tried different surface treatments, some were just sawn while other joints very machined smooth. But regardless, in the same side-by-side tests the Titebond excelled. I can't imagine the gluing procedure is radically different from Titebond. Every LMI glue test broke rather easily at the joint while the Titebond never broke on the joint. The wood failed before the glue joint did.
I don't doubt that you and countless others have used LMII glue successfully. But you're making my point. What works well for someone doesn't necessarily mean it'll work for someone else. I may be the only guy on the planet that can't figure out how to use this stuff and it frustrates me.

Chuck-you're not alone. I'm blaming high humidity and salt air here on the coast and have since discontinued using it...after trying it over several/many years and attempts....just didn't give me confidence when reaching for glue on the shelf....

Anyone else in Hawaii using lmi glue?? Be interesting if it is a Hawaiian thing, but I have no idea how that could be so. Ill do some test here in Sydney, we have some old and new lmi glue to go up against titebond.

Hi Chuck.

You're not alone. I tried LMI white glue many years ago because of it's purported superior properties in some respects, but it failed miserably in much the same fashion yours has. Multiple glue joint failures on a variety of tests. Interestingly, I did live coastal and sub-tropical at the time, but then, I believe I recall one of their sales 'quotes' coming from someone living in Cairns, Australia - even more humid, hot and salty then where I was; and it was apparently their glue of choice so it should not be a relevant factor.

Anyway, I put it down to a bad batch, or perhaps it did not survive the conditions during travel to Australia. Like you, it did not smell sour either. Nevertheless, I have NEVER had a Titebond Original (Red) joint fail, so the LMII did not and has never had a second chance since. Simply no need when other glues do all I require and have never shown any issue.

If it aint' broke...

When I first started building I got a bottle from LMI, and like Jeremy saw the testimonial on LMI's site from someone up in Cairns saying it was the greatest glue that they ever used. So that was good enough for me. As hot, humid and salt laden air as you are likely to find any where in the world. I still have a couple of the instruments that I built with that first bottle, and not a failed joint in either.

But I've not used the stuff since. I rarely place an order with LMI so it just wasn't anything I'd special order from them seeing as the shipping would be triple what the product would actually cost. And as most of you know, I'm a HHG advocate.