Testing, One, Two, Three...

Last week I wrote a message to the moderators of the UU outlining what I saw as being heavy-handed or somewhat misguided closings of a thread (Palm Wood) right on the heels of allowing a thread to develop which I found to be unfairly critical of one of our brethren luthiers, Joe Souza...and then having my thread re. that be closed down. I have not received any reply to the message I sent through what appear to be the proper channels...messaging to moderators through the "contact us" link. So...if any moderators are indeed out there, do you actually check incoming messages, or do we type in vain? How might we enter into friendly, yet critical dialog regarding some of us having issues with how you (moderators) are doing or not doing your jobs?

The Internet can put folks like us builders in a really tough spot sometimes. The customer is NOT always right, yet his or her uninformed criticism on public forums can do great harm, intentional or not, to luthiers. Too often I see uke buyers coming first to a forum with a problem that could be easily dealt with one-on-one with a builder or manufacturer. This is not the best way to deal with things, and I believe that in the long run, it does more harm to all parties than good.

And then there's the shutting down of a thread for absolutely no apparent reason...the Palm Wood thread. Sure, there were a couple of puns that cropped up, but absolutely nothing off-color, NSFW, or even mildly offensive to anyone. Was there a really bad post that got eliminated and then the thread closed? If that's the case, we participants deserve to know what happened, even if our tender eyes are protected by censorship.

It's issues like these that make me less and less interested in participating in this or any other on-line forums. To me, it represents a dumbing down, a race to the lowest common denominator that is itself offensive and off-putting. There is already a loud crowd of non-experts ready, willing, and able to tell people the worst way to fix broken ukes, to choose woods, what other materials to use, etc. I would think that the moderators of forums like this would bend over backwards to have real experts, be they historians, players, teachers, or luthiers participating fully and enthusiastically on-line.

Are there any moderators out there who would care to discuss these issues? And why no response? And I wonder if this will get locked...

I for one would be very sorry lose extremely knowledgeable people here at uu.

And yet there is a whole contingent of us who value "pleasant" over "precisely accurate". If you can be both, all the better.

I am glad to see you are not completely gone from the forum, Mr. Turner. I have valued and used your advice in the past, and it has always been most helpful. I am in awe that so many experienced people are willing to help perfect strangers.

I am an occupational therapist with a specialty, and experience the same type of complaint problems from a few customers. they complain to their doctor or friends, but don't come back and ask to have something changed or replaced, etc. It can really affect referrals, and our ability to keep the clinic viable.

I don't know that there is any way to stop people that want to complain, and complain, and... It is apparently more fun than just getting something fixed from the person who can fix it.

Anyway, glad to see your name pop up again.

Anne Flynn

Rick,

I'm not a builder nor a luthier, and I don't offer any advice on such matters. I do enjoy reading what you and other real builders have to say and have profited from your wisdom to help me do some minor work on some of my instruments.
I would hate to see you gone from here Mr. Turner!

Come on moderators, answer the man's question!

Glenn Read, proud Compass Rose owner

Do you really believe any criticism from a customer on the forum means they are dumb, or that the criticism is unwarranted or unreasonable?
Rick no one doubts your skills as a luthier, or the fact that you can add useful information to dialogues on the forum.
I even believe from speaking with others that you are a great guy to meet in person.
However, your Simon Cowell curmudgeon persona on the forum doesn't help your cause.
You stated you went through proper channels to contact the moderators, and didn't hear back. How does that feel?
I tried every channel,calling,emailing,Facebook chatting,PMing you on the forum. Yet, I never received a single response,or an apology from you personally on how my ukulele came to me not once, but twice missing the pickup and guitar strap button. How do you think it made me feel to open up my UPS package not once but twice to the same oversight. Do you think you make the effort to adequately communicate with your customers? You never actually contacted me personally. A simple call or email with an oops and a laugh would have sufficed. Your assistant Jayme on her limited work hours would speak with me when she could, and I truly believe she is doing a great job. Do you have any idea how rare it was to get someone actually responding to your business phone during work hours or responding to an email. I hope things improve. I can honestly say I wish you good things and success in life.

Newportlocal said:

Do you really believe any criticism from a customer on the forum means they are dumb, or that the criticism is unwarranted or unreasonable?
Rick no one doubts your skills as a luthier, or the fact that you can add useful information to dialogues on the forum.
I even believe from speaking with others that you are a great guy to meet in person.
However, your Simon Cowell curmudgeon persona on the forum doesn't help your cause.
You stated you went through proper channels to contact the moderators, and didn't hear back. How does that feel?
I tried every channel,calling,emailing,Facebook chatting,PMing you on the forum. Yet, I never received a single response,or an apology from you personally on how my ukulele came to me not once, but twice missing the pickup and guitar strap button. How do you think it made me feel to open up my UPS package not once but twice to the same oversight. Do you think you make the effort to adequately communicate with your customers? You never actually contacted me personally. A simple call or email with an oops and a laugh would have sufficed. Your assistant Jayme on her limited work hours would speak with me when she could, and I truly believe she is doing a great job. Do you have any idea how rare it was to get someone actually responding to your business phone during work hours or responding to an email. I hope things improve. I can honestly say I wish you good things and success in life.

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Yeah. Nothing like bashing your luthier. I understand, RC.

stevepetergal said:

Yeah. Nothing like bashing your luthier. I understand, RC.

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Obviously you don't understand, or you wouldn't have made that comment.

One might be reminded we are guests here. We don't pay the owners of the forum. No one pays the moderators. If we don't like the way they run things we are free to not participate. They have every right to kill a thread if they want to. Our rules don't apply. Theirs do.

I have never understood the entitled attitude members of an open internet forum develop when the moderators (VOLUNTEERS) do their best to keep things civil.

I am learning to build ukuleles. I can't even tell you how valuable the posts from Rick and Pete Howlett (another voice I haven't heard for a while) have been to me. I have your definitive "glue lecture" bookmarked. I watch videos from Pete, Beau, Aaron - lots of "real" luthiers and have worked in person with Brad Donaldson.

At the same time I have watched some of the voices - yours first among the, Rick, denigrate, mock, and belittle those of less ability. I have learned that if a new person makes the horrible mistake of asking a question without googling first, they will be sniped at by you when they could've just been ignored.

A good friend and UU member stated the last quote in my signature outside of UU, but it was so perfect I had to include it here. Take it to heart. Some people seem to believe that frankness and bluntness is the same as just plain rudeness. It's not.

I don't want you to go, Rick. But to be very honest, you have changed a lot since you first started posting here. Maybe I was just starry-eyed that Rick Turner was posting in this forum and sharing some knowledge. But I remember you sharing stories of your career, your life with so many of the big names in music. I miss that.

mascompro said:

Obviously you don't understand, or you wouldn't have made that comment.

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I second this comment.

It's so easy for others to set behind their keyboards and type hurtful things when they have absolutely NO understanding of what might have happened with experience with said luthier.

Hypothetical situation, Mr. Steven Petergal--suppose you commissioned a uke with a luthier--any luthier. This person had you give him/her your perameters of what you were wanting in your uke. Then he/she told you this uke would be finished on X date. You pay your bill up front in full, and wait.

X date arrives, no custom ukulele. You're cool about it, and let it slide for a month, thinking it will come soon, no worries. 45 days after the completion date, still no uke. You shoot your luthier an email, and a week later you haven't yet got an answer. You try to call the shop, and you leave a voicemail. You wait 2 more weeks, and there is still no answer to either your email or voicemail. Would you be a little concerned at this point? You've dropped over 2 grand for something that was promised 2 months prior, and you haven't so much as had the courtesy of a call or email.

Yet, because of your utmost respect for this person, you still let it go, thinking it won't be as long as it has been. Well you would be wrong. 2 more months slide by, and finally you're starting to get fed up. You call several more times, leaving voicemails, and you try emailing a few more times, all going unanswered. Where does this leave you? What would you be thinking at this point?

All the while, you see this luthier posting on the forum, almost on a daily basis. You try PMing him/her here to no avail. Okay, you're now 4+ months past the due date, and you've received absolutely no response. No hi, no bye, not even a kiss my butt from this person. But, they've got your money. They've got your uke (hopefully), and in your hands, what have you got?

Well anyway, a month later, you call and get an answer from a person that is new and has no knowledge of your situation. You bring this person up to speed, they check things out, and tell you that your uke is coming soon. After 5 months of waiting, that's 5 months *past* the due date (this isn't counting the time you waited before the due date), you finally have some form of contact. But bare in mind you had to initiate it. Another 3 weeks roll by, and finally you get a shipping notice by email. HALLELUJAH! You're gonna get your instrument!!

3 days later, it arrives. In anticipation, you open the box, and there it is in all it's beauty...but hold the phone...it's missing a strap button and a pickup. These were on the original order (a copy with the items listed was in the box), but they somehow weren't installed. No problem, you just call the shop, right? Well, it's Friday evening, and the shop is closed, so you wait til Monday. You get ahold of the assistant, and they send you a shipping label, and away your beautiful custom goes again.

After 2 more weeks of patiently waiting, you email the assistant. You get a return email a couple of days later saying your uke has been taken care of. It gets shipped, and 2 days later, it's back in your hands. Again with anticipation, you open the box, and guess what? It's comes back without the strap button and pickup....again. Would this get you a little frustrated? I can tell you, it would me. But maybe you are the paragon of patience.

Anyway, this time you PM, email, and try to get ahold of your luthier by facebook to ask to PLEASE get this situation recitified. You get no answer in any form or fashion. Finally, a couple of days later, after repeated voicemails, you get a call back from the assistant, who again sends you a return label. Now let me tell you, if this were me, I might be a little reluctant to send it back. But you, in your infinite patience, do so. After 2 more weeks, you receive an email saying your uke has shipped complete.

This time everything is square. Finally.

You might think there would be a short note of apology, or even just a "Thanks for your business". Nah. Nothing of the sort. Seven months past the due date. Sending it back not once, but twice, for the same miscues. And nothing. NOTHING.

Getting a new uke, is supposed to be a joyous experience. Getting a custom, for most of us, is a once in a lifetime thing. Most luthiers actually share in the experience with you, sending you pics of the steps, and sending emails explaining some of the processes. I know mine did. And mine is an extremely busy man as well. The business that he is head luthier for makes over 4000 ukuleles a year.

But instead, you have a uke that the process has caused you nothing but heartache and worry. For me, there would be no joy in picking up this instrument and playing it. Maybe I'm crazy, but more than half of the overall experience of my custom was the journey of it being built. Don't get me wrong, playing it is awesome. But every time I pick it up, the memories of how it came to be flood back to me. When I look at the koa neck, I remember an email where Paul suggested to me that I go with the koa instead of the originally planned sapele, because he had found a piece that would match the overall grain of the uke. Plus, he wanted it to be an all native Hawaiian wood theme. This is why we went with milo for the bridge and fretboard. Well anyway, I'm getting way off track, but do you get what I'm trying to say? The playing of this uke would be tainted for me, and filled with nothing but bad memories.

And all he asked for was something simple. An apology. Nothing more. Not money, nor free stuff. A kind word. But apparently his luthier either must not see it that way, or he's just way too busy, and doesn't know all this went on. I hope it's the latter.

Rick you said it well in that we value real experts, be they historians, players, teachers, or luthiers participating fully and enthusiastically on-line BUT many of us value the golden rule much more.

salukulady said:

One might be reminded we are guests here. We don't pay the owners of the forum. No one pays the moderators. If we don't like the way they run things we are free to not participate. They have every right to kill a thread if they want to. Our rules don't apply. Theirs do.

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On the other hand there are TEN moderators listed, surely ONE could take the time to reply. But as you say we are free not to participate, however if no one participates there will be no forum.
Kind regards
Dennis

DPO said:

On the other hand there are TEN moderators listed, surely ONE could take the time to reply. But as you say we are free not to participate, however if no one participates there will be no forum.
Kind regards
Dennis

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If you really want to get a moderator's attention, you do what you would do with any other memeber--PM them directly. It's always worked for me.

I've never seen (or I guess paid attention) to the fact that there was a "contact us" link. I would imagine it's been there since the creation of the forum, which at that time was run by two guys. I would probably think that might be an old unchecked email box that could have been forgotten about. Of course, I'm making an assumption there.

Freeda said:

And yet there is a whole contingent of us who value "pleasant" over "precisely accurate". If you can be both, all the better.

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I will, without a moment's hesitation, take precisely accurate over pleasant. Every time. If that's the option. I've got thick skin.

At school the teachers that taught me the skills I still use were some of the oldest and most short tempered.

At university the lecturers were happy to tell me when I was wrong.

During my apprenticeship. The tradesmen who knew the most were some of the most painful to be around. Some of them were younger than me. I had to check the ego at the door. Now I am, at times, put in charge of some of them. They don't carry on. We still learn from each other.

I'll never get Rick's instrument building skills and knowledge in several lifetimes, I haven't got enough spare time, so I'll take truth bombs over the long and winding road to ruin.

As an only slight aside, I don't have too much trouble weeding out the people whose advice isn't worth taking. If they don't sign with their name (even just a first name) and don't offer info on their skills / knowledge that can be peer reviewed / critiqued I'm reluctant to give their opinions much credence. This isn't a personal jibe at anyone, I just find it works. I only build in my spare time and would prefer to use it efficiently.

Rick Turner said:

Last week I wrote a message to the moderators of the UU outlining what I saw as being heavy-handed or somewhat misguided closings of a thread (Palm Wood) right on the heels of allowing a thread to develop which I found to be unfairly critical of one of our brethren luthiers, Joe Souza...and then having my thread re. that be closed down. I have not received any reply to the message I sent through what appear to be the proper channels...messaging to moderators through the "contact us" link. So...if any moderators are indeed out there, do you actually check incoming messages, or do we type in vain? How might we enter into friendly, yet critical dialog regarding some of us having issues with how you (moderators) are doing or not doing your jobs?

The Internet can put folks like us builders in a really tough spot sometimes. The customer is NOT always right, yet his or her uninformed criticism on public forums can do great harm, intentional or not, to luthiers. Too often I see uke buyers coming first to a forum with a problem that could be easily dealt with one-on-one with a builder or manufacturer. This is not the best way to deal with things, and I believe that in the long run, it does more harm to all parties than good.

And then there's the shutting down of a thread for absolutely no apparent reason...the Palm Wood thread. Sure, there were a couple of puns that cropped up, but absolutely nothing off-color, NSFW, or even mildly offensive to anyone. Was there a really bad post that got eliminated and then the thread closed? If that's the case, we participants deserve to know what happened, even if our tender eyes are protected by censorship.

It's issues like these that make me less and less interested in participating in this or any other on-line forums. To me, it represents a dumbing down, a race to the lowest common denominator that is itself offensive and off-putting. There is already a loud crowd of non-experts ready, willing, and able to tell people the worst way to fix broken ukes, to choose woods, what other materials to use, etc. I would think that the moderators of forums like this would bend over backwards to have real experts, be they historians, players, teachers, or luthiers participating fully and enthusiastically on-line.

Are there any moderators out there who would care to discuss these issues? And why no response? And I wonder if this will get locked...

Click to expand...

We appreciate your suggestions, Rick. We did receive your email. Rest assured they do get read, and we take every suggestion or comment under sincere consideration.

If you feel that we are not doing that satisfactorily, you are free to contact Ryan Esaki at ryan (at) ukuleleunderground (dot) com.

Liam Ryan said:

I will, without a moment's hesitation, take precisely accurate over pleasant. Every time. If that's the option. I've got thick skin.

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My sentiments exactly. And I've yet to meet a tradesman in any field whom wouldn't agree.

Come on people. Stop being such a bunch of princess's.

Can anyone give me a good reason why they might be unable to manage accurate and civil at the same time?

Can anyone give me a good reason why they might be unable to manage accurate and civil at the same time?

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Why? Because we live in the real world in which people have personalities. If UU is interested in maintaining the Luthier's Lounge as the vibrant, informative resource it has become, I would strongly advise that users, especially non-luthiers, refrain from alienating the professionals who dispense good advice at no cost to anyone. If one or two of them are brusque when dealing with some folks or issues, that's the way it is in the real world. In this case, Rick was objecting to complaints about a fellow luthier that should have been addressed directly with said luthier, not in a public forum. The fact that another dissatisfied customer attempted to hijack this thread with his own complaints just reinforces my belief that Rick is correct on this issue.

I have butted heads with Rick and Pete from time to time, but I have the utmost respect and admiration for both of them. I'm an adult, and I can take the occasional irritable post. What I won't be able to tolerate is a forum that is polite but devoid of good content. That's the path some seem to want to take, but it is not one I care to follow.

Here's my view on it, as a non luthier IT person.

I get an emergency call that someone's workstation isn't working. I bust biscuits to get over there, and find that their monitor wasn't turned on.

Yes, the person could have easily figured out what was going on if they just stopped for a second and thought about it. Yes, I just wasted my time and biscuits going over there to push a power button.

I would take a couple playful jabs at them, but we would both leave smiling, or at least with no hard feelings.

Or, I could go on a 10 min long tirade about how stupid they were and how much time and payroll they just wasted. I would leave muttering, they would be crying under their desk, and the rest of the cube farm would be thinking about how big a dill weed I was and wouldn't give me any cake at the next baby/wedding/birthday/holiday party.

You can correct someone, even sternly, and they'll still share their cake with you if you don't make them feel like a lesser being.