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hoosierhiver
01-08-2009, 04:23 AM
I really love UU! The folks here are so nice, supportive and knowledgable. I've made and keep making good friends here. So it's sad to see so much controversy on the contest thread. As I said before,we are a passionate bunch,and with that passion comes strong feelings that maybe aren't always expressed as well as they could be.We are all human and of course no ones perfect,but I think I can safely say that UU has really got something special here.The comradery here is unmatched.Some of the other ukulele forums are downright acrimonious (big word!).With some of our fantastic folks here keeping the mood positive,I don't expect that UU will devolve into anything less than the wonderful home it has been for me and many others.:D

mctrmt
01-08-2009, 04:50 AM
Hear hear!

E-Lo Roberts
01-08-2009, 05:56 AM
I really love UU! The folks here are so nice, supportive and knowledgable. I've made and keep making good friends here. So it's sad to see so much controversy on the contest thread. As I said before,we are a passionate bunch,and with that passion comes strong feelings that maybe aren't always expressed as well as they could be.We are all human and of course no ones perfect,but I think I can safely say that UU has really got something special here.The comradery here is unmatched.Some of the other ukulele forums are downright acrimonious (big word!).With some of our fantastic folks here keeping the mood positive,I don't expect that UU will devolve into anything less than the wonderful home it has been for me and many others.:D
Hoosierhiver, I'm with you brother...

In the 60's, a counter-culture movement was started on the premise of "peace, love, and togetherness" in the district of Haight-Ashbury of San Francisco. As itís popularity grew, the ideals of the original concept was smothered by outside interests that spread hate and dischord within.

It will be curious to check the climate at UU in a few years. Hopefully it will continue to grow, yet still, promote similar values amongst it's members.

...Peace, Love, & Peanut Butter...e.lo...

Plainsong
01-08-2009, 06:02 AM
But we should still be able to disagree without being called "haters" - I mean there's a reason that creative types feel cheated after such contests, and there are lots of reasons why these contests are actually really bad ideas to enter.

SamWise
01-08-2009, 06:03 AM
I have mixed feelings. I didn't feel cheated, and I was glad I entered, but I thought that some of the results were just off the scale weird. That said, I felt bad after reading and contributing to that thread, and wish now that I hadn't. I don't want to see this place poisoned, and I doubly don't want to be even partly responsible.

Peace love and ginger biscuits!

E-Lo Roberts
01-08-2009, 06:13 AM
Samwise, don't feel bad. Remove (delete) your negative contribution from that thread. You still have the choice to do that. :) ...e.lo...

BTWriter
01-08-2009, 06:21 AM
Though I am no legendary member, I do love this place, and will do my best to contribute more positivity than negativity- but always, always truth.

And nudity, whenever possible.

Tanizaki
01-08-2009, 07:11 AM
But we should still be able to disagree without being called "haters" - I mean there's a reason that creative types feel cheated after such contests, and there are lots of reasons why these contests are actually really bad ideas to enter.

I would be interested to learn some of these reasons. If self-proclaimed "creative types" feel cheated, I suggest they reexamine their priorities.

Despite what we get told by our high school art teachers, creativity is actually quite rare. Have the "creative types" pushed back the frontiers of their arts in any fashion, or are they essentially doing, at best, variations on long-established patterns?

UkEdman90
01-08-2009, 07:33 AM
where is said "Contest Thread?" i would like to read. sry but ima little confused here.

Nurdaben
01-08-2009, 07:35 AM
http://www.ukuleleunderground.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8331

enjoy

BTWriter
01-08-2009, 07:47 AM
I would be interested to learn some of these reasons. If self-proclaimed "creative types" feel cheated, I suggest they reexamine their priorities.

Despite what we get told by our high school art teachers, creativity is actually quite rare. Have the "creative types" pushed back the frontiers of their arts in any fashion, or are they essentially doing, at best, variations on long-established patterns?

"The sensual man conforms thoughts to things; the poet conforms things to his thoughts." -Ralph Waldo Emerson

Just because a person utilizes what is already there to to express ideas or "create" instead of reinventing a form of expression does not in any way degrade that person's creativity. What you are labeling as "creativity" would better be described as "genius".

I did not participate in the contest, but I can see
1: Why some would feel cheated because, in their eyes, a love of truth and expression of the same is the truest beauty, and thus should trump catchiness or cuteness.
2: Why others would feel this is unfair, because the contest was not designed to rate artistic worth and beauty, but in fact entertainment value, which is highly subjective and could just as easily hold catchiness/cuteness/pop culture to be best as anything else.

That being said, it is unfair for either side to denigrate the other's creativity or worth.

EDIT: Now can we stop the argument from spilling over into other threads, and recognize that both sides hold valid positions, and should be recognized for the merit in their respective goals and accomplishments?

UkEdman90
01-08-2009, 07:52 AM
http://www.ukuleleunderground.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8331

enjoy

THX! NOW I GET IT!

that was a good read but meh w/e guys!

Plainsong
01-08-2009, 07:55 AM
Here's an article on why contests leave can leave some feeling empty. It's about designing logos and such, and why it's bad for your business to enter such contests, but stretch the imagination a bit and apply it to music, or anything.

http://www.no-spec.com/articles/design-contests/

UkEdman90
01-08-2009, 08:05 AM
Here's an article on why contests leave can leave some feeling empty. It's about designing logos and such, and why it's bad for your business to enter such contests, but stretch the imagination a bit and apply it to music, or anything.

http://www.no-spec.com/articles/design-contests/

THAT WAS AN AWESOME FIND! TOTALLY AGREE! If All entries were not viewable i believe this would be totally different! Just like the T-Shirt Contest that was cool! Praise to the UU STAFF!

benmealer
01-08-2009, 11:59 AM
I feel you, hh. I sort of see ukulele videos as a type of karaoke at their worst, some are better than others, but it's still good form to clap at the bad ones. At their best, they are about as serious as music can be. At the end of the day we're all here to have fun. I know I'm not making any money off of it

Link
01-08-2009, 12:19 PM
"The sensual man conforms thoughts to things; the poet conforms things to his thoughts." -Ralph Waldo Emerson

Just because a person utilizes what is already there to to express ideas or "create" instead of reinventing a form of expression does not in any way degrade that person's creativity. What you are labeling as "creativity" would better be described as "genius".

I did not participate in the contest, but I can see
1: Why some would feel cheated because, in their eyes, a love of truth and expression of the same is the truest beauty, and thus should trump catchiness or cuteness.
2: Why others would feel this is unfair, because the contest was not designed to rate artistic worth and beauty, but in fact entertainment value, which is highly subjective and could just as easily hold catchiness/cuteness/pop culture to be best as anything else.

That being said, it is unfair for either side to denigrate the other's creativity or worth.

EDIT: Now can we stop the argument from spilling over into other threads, and recognize that both sides hold valid positions, and should be recognized for the merit in their respective goals and accomplishments?
Amen.

There's been a lot of belittling from both sides about the other's opinion. That is why the thread got ugly. Keep it positive, respect everyone's opinion, and be constructive.

1 rough topic isn't enough to bring us down... right?

haole
01-08-2009, 02:05 PM
A little disagreement is healthy, but I'm glad that most threads here are a lot more laid-back than that. Still, rather than trying to revive the arguments of the previous thread about the contest, why not just put that behind us? I can see why it was closed. :B I still have faith in the UU community, and I'm not letting my opinions change about anyone who posted anything controversial in there. You guys are still awesome, and this is still by far the most welcoming, best-run, and least-pretentious forum than any other I've posted on.

Tanizaki
01-08-2009, 02:06 PM
"The sensual man conforms thoughts to things; the poet conforms things to his thoughts." -Ralph Waldo Emerson

"It is a good thing for an uneducated man to read books of quotations." - Winston Churchill

Do you not see the slightest bit of irony in beginning a paean to creativity with someone else's words?


Just because a person utilizes what is already there to to express ideas or "create" instead of reinventing a form of expression does not in any way degrade that person's creativity. What you are labeling as "creativity" would better be described as "genius".
Yes, it does. Creation is the development of something fundamentally new. If something doesn't meet that criteria, it isn't creative. I am not making a value judgment; I am simply stating a fact. Many great songs are simply the I-IV-V progression. Those songs are not creative works. There is a modest level of creativity in that they have different words and tempos, but they are fundamentally the same.


1: Why some would feel cheated because, in their eyes, a love of truth and expression of the same is the truest beauty, and thus should trump catchiness or cuteness.
If they feel cheated, they should feel cheated by their English teachers who left them unable to read the contest's stated criteria, which were about entertainment and humor, not "truest beauty". It's like obese women crying that they can't win the Miss America contest and whining about their "inner beauty".


2: Why others would feel this is unfair, because the contest was not designed to rate artistic worth and beauty, but in fact entertainment value, which is highly subjective and could just as easily hold catchiness/cuteness/pop culture to be best as anything else.
Tell me how artistic worth and beauty is any less subjective than entertainment value.


That being said, it is unfair for either side to denigrate the other's creativity or worth.
I certainly haven't, unlike others who have questioned the worthiness of the contest's winners.


Here's an article on why contests leave can leave some feeling empty. It's about designing logos and such, and why it's bad for your business to enter such contests, but stretch the imagination a bit and apply it to music, or anything.

http://www.no-spec.com/articles/design-contests/

Again, a "creative type" relies on someone else's words. That article is about business concerns from the contest hoster's standpoint, not the hurt feelings of the self-indulgent artists.

Link
01-08-2009, 02:26 PM
I see this topic getting closed too. Or maybe I just hope it does...

hoosierhiver
01-08-2009, 02:29 PM
Tanizaki,
You've got some good stuff to say,but I've got to respectfully disagree that 1-4-5 songs "are not creative works".
Some 1-4-5's are the best stuff around.

Tanizaki
01-08-2009, 02:31 PM
Tanizaki,
You've got some good stuff to say,but I've got to respectfully disagree that 1-4-5 songs "are not creative works".
Some 1-4-5's are the best stuff around.

I agree. I said, "Many great songs are simply the I-IV-V progression."

Again, I am not making a value judgment. Many creative things are mediocre, and many works that have little to no creativity are great.

hoosierhiver
01-08-2009, 02:40 PM
I started this thread in the hope we can all talk about this and agree that we can have the occasional disagreement.That nobody really means any harm and that we are alot the same.

I hope this thread isn't closed because there is no reason we can't respectfully talk about this,try to understand each other and in the end, learn something and understand each other better.

Sure this "argument" has been awkward and uncomfortable because we care about each other and UU and don't want anything to ruin it,but I still feel that this is no more than a Thanksgiving arguement within my family.;)

Tanizaki
01-08-2009, 02:46 PM
I started this thread in the hope we can all talk about this and agree that we can have the occasional disagreement.That nobody really means any harm and that we are alot the same.

I hope this thread isn't closed because there is no reason we can't respectfully talk about this,try to understand each other and in the end, learn something and understand each other better.

Sure this "argument" has been awkward and uncomfortable because we care about each other and UU and don't want anything to ruin it,but I still feel that this is no more than a Thanksgiving arguement within my family.;)

Ditto. I think a discussion of artistic concepts is more stimulating than "what size uke should I get next?", "how to pronounce ukulele" or my favorite, ""wow, B chords are hard!"

Link
01-08-2009, 03:53 PM
I don't mind the discussion. I just think theres ways to do it without questioning someone's creativity, education, asking people to re-examine their priorities because they aren't the same as yours, etc.

Seems to me most people don't want to revive what the other thread degenerated in to.

I gleefully await your response which is sure to pick apart my post sentence by sentence.

Waterguy
01-08-2009, 03:54 PM
One of the truest things I ever read about music taste was inside a novel written by Tad Williams. The title is "The War of the Flowers". It's a long book, and well wort reading but at one point his main character points out his view on people's musical tastes. The quote is "A teenage girl creaming while she listens to some boy-band, a monk digging on the God he hears in Gregorian chants, or John ****ing Coltrane himself climbing up on a staircase made of sixteenth notes, it's all the same. If it takes you there, it's good"

I read that and said to myself "That is the TRUTH". There is no right and there is no wrong when it comes to music. There is what gets YOU where YOU live and there is everything else. Everything else might get someone else where they live. If someone manages to make a piece of music that gets lots of people where they live, then my opinion of the piece is irrelevant. I may hate it but it has to be good. I do not have the level of ego that it takes to say that 1 million or so people or so are idiots just because they like something I don't.

My 2 cents

Tanizaki
01-08-2009, 04:35 PM
One of the truest things I ever read about music taste was inside a novel written by Tad Williams. The title is "The War of the Flowers". It's a long book, and well wort reading but at one point his main character points out his view on people's musical tastes. The quote is "A teenage girl creaming while she listens to some boy-band, a monk digging on the God he hears in Gregorian chants, or John ****ing Coltrane himself climbing up on a staircase made of sixteenth notes, it's all the same. If it takes you there, it's good"

I read that and said to myself "That is the TRUTH". There is no right and there is no wrong when it comes to music. There is what gets YOU where YOU live and there is everything else. Everything else might get someone else where they live. If someone manages to make a piece of music that gets lots of people where they live, then my opinion of the piece is irrelevant. I may hate it but it has to be good. I do not have the level of ego that it takes to say that 1 million or so people or so are idiots just because they like something I don't.

My 2 cents

Top shelf. Quoted for truth.

Plainsong
01-08-2009, 04:40 PM
Tanizaki,
You've got some good stuff to say,but I've got to respectfully disagree that 1-4-5 songs "are not creative works".
Some 1-4-5's are the best stuff around.

Amen with a plagal cadence. Funny how a different stance was taken by the poster you're disagreeing with in previous discussions. But remember, in order to avoid flame wars, there is always the ignore list, so you don't have to read how your post will be picked apart.

Poor Bushman winners, all they decided to do was play some fun songs.

Plainsong
01-08-2009, 04:53 PM
You asked for evidence, which implies external sources, which is what people gave you. With that, welcome to another ignore list.


"It is a good thing for an uneducated man to read books of quotations." - Winston Churchill

Do you not see the slightest bit of irony in beginning a paean to creativity with someone else's words?


Yes, it does. Creation is the development of something fundamentally new. If something doesn't meet that criteria, it isn't creative. I am not making a value judgment; I am simply stating a fact. Many great songs are simply the I-IV-V progression. Those songs are not creative works. There is a modest level of creativity in that they have different words and tempos, but they are fundamentally the same.


If they feel cheated, they should feel cheated by their English teachers who left them unable to read the contest's stated criteria, which were about entertainment and humor, not "truest beauty". It's like obese women crying that they can't win the Miss America contest and whining about their "inner beauty".


Tell me how artistic worth and beauty is any less subjective than entertainment value.


I certainly haven't, unlike others who have questioned the worthiness of the contest's winners.



Again, a "creative type" relies on someone else's words. That article is about business concerns from the contest hoster's standpoint, not the hurt feelings of the self-indulgent artists.

menehunenyc
01-08-2009, 05:02 PM
You asked for evidence, which implies external sources, which is what people gave you. With that, welcome to another ignore list.

I quite agree, ignored completely...


anyone remember the little "balance" icon (it appoints +/- reputation points!) in the upper right hand corner of every post? We can use it in a case like this.

BTWriter
01-08-2009, 05:58 PM
"It is a good thing for an uneducated man to read books of quotations." - Winston Churchill

Do you not see the slightest bit of irony in beginning a paean to creativity with someone else's words?


I didn't get that from a book of quotations, but from my personal notebook, wherein I keep tidbits from everything I read, this particular quote being from Emerson's essay Nature.

I see no irony in it, because "creativity" does not mean what you think it means, at least not in the context we are discussing it in. One can be creative without being completely original in every aspect. You may as well say Shakespeare wasn't creative because he conformed to the format of a play, or didn't exclusively utilize words he had made up. It's plainly ridiculous, but you seem to be emotionally vested in being right, so I'll bow out of the conversation.

UkuLeLesReggAe
01-08-2009, 10:43 PM
i think i did once before, actually.. many times! :D

SamWise
01-08-2009, 11:20 PM
Those songs are not creative works. There is a modest level of creativity in that they have different words and tempos, but they are fundamentally the same.


I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding. If you follow your logic, then no piece of music is creative, because they all use the same 13 notes that all the others have. 1/4/5 songs can have great creative melodies, lyrics, rhythm. Every last detail being new is not only unlikely, it's unnecessary. All music (and all art) is fundamentally a development of what has gone before. You couldn't have rock and roll without the black music that preceded it. You couldn't have Hendrix without rock and roll. You couldn't have heavy metal without Hendrix. You couldn't have Mozart without Beethoven, and you couldn't have Shakespeare without Marlowe. Like it or not, everyone is influenced by what they hear and see, and then they add their ideas and creativity to that mix. It's very possible to do a creative cover version of a song without changing the lyrics or the melody at all.

Creativity exists, and in various forms is quite common. Let's celebrate and enjoy it.

Tanizaki
01-09-2009, 03:01 AM
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding. If you follow your logic, then no piece of music is creative, because they all use the same 13 notes that all the others have. 1/4/5 songs can have great creative melodies, lyrics, rhythm. Every last detail being new is not only unlikely, it's unnecessary. All music (and all art) is fundamentally a development of what has gone before. You couldn't have rock and roll without the black music that preceded it. You couldn't have Hendrix without rock and roll. You couldn't have heavy metal without Hendrix. You couldn't have Mozart without Beethoven, and you couldn't have Shakespeare without Marlowe. Like it or not, everyone is influenced by what they hear and see, and then they add their ideas and creativity to that mix. It's very possible to do a creative cover version of a song without changing the lyrics or the melody at all.

Creativity exists, and in various forms is quite common. Let's celebrate and
enjoy it.
12 notes.

I was waiting for a reply like yours that would ultimately extend out creativity to absurd lengths to make it a meaningless word e.g. "you can't have a creative novel because you have to invent a new language from scratch and even if you did, you didn't event the idea of text blah blah blah" It's like the discussion of if there is any such thing as "identical" because even if you have two carbon atoms, they are not the same atom. That's good for mental masturbation at Starbucks, but not very useful.

That is not what creativity is. Creativity is the bringing about of fundamentally new ideas. To use your example of Mozart, take any two pieces composed 5 or so years apart during his adult years. They are fundamentally different. That is creativity.

And apparently is bears repeating, so I will type it very slowly and in all caps: I AM NOT MAKING A VALUE JUDGMENT. Either something is creative, or it is not, and the level of creativity is no measure of its worth. Many things with a modest level of creativity are great, and many creative things are rubbish.

And to the other folks who claim to have presented evidence, they have not. Evidence of the self-proclaimed "creative types" creativity would be to present some of their creative works.

SamWise
01-09-2009, 03:31 AM
Fine. Have this:

http://www.myspace.com/themerchandise

Make whatever judgements you wish about the songs on there, but they are creative, because I created them. They are also to some extent derivative, because they are influenced by the music I love. You're building a straw man.