New Baritone Design - Construction, LFdM

bobmyers

bobmyers

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“I am not a master player, I am not a designer, or musical engineer. I just love the ukulele in all its forms and ask for more.
So I asked Luis Feu de Mesquita to create me a Baritone Ukulele.
He is up for the challenge but needs our help. In my opinion the perfect baritone has not been made. This will be a new attempt.
We will throw away all previous standards for size, scale etc.
The new design is an open book. Luis would like to follow the successful shape of his Ukaferri tenor design. I agree, size, scale and construction are variable.
So what can this forum contribute to the final product.
Tell us all the shortfalls if any your current baritone has. Tell us the strings you find satisfying. Tell us what has worked for you.
Most importantly tell us what you would like done better. There are many high quality makers out there with baritones in their stable, are you totally happy with them, or could some change get it closer to nirvana?
This column is about collecting your comments and suggestions pro and con on this subject, with the goal of improving the breed, results being available to all builders, string makers and others involved in the process.

All are welcome to be part of this project.
Bob Myers”
 
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Wow, clean sheet of paper, eh? I'll just start with a few suggestions from my experience so far.
1. Scale - I prefer the 19" scale of my Bruko to the 20+ scale of my Lanikai.
2. Action - Both are about 3mm but I would prefer lower. The Bruko can't get any lower due to the height of the bridge - saddle just can't go any lower - so I'd recommend a lower profile bridge for more flexibility with the action
3. Side port - I don't have one but my next tenor will - probably anything I designed from the ground up would have it
4. Neck thickness - Bruko is quite chunky - I'd really prefer slimmer

Don't get me wrong, I love my Bruko, but you asked how it could be better. Reading back on this I guess I'm saying I'd like my bari to be closer to a tenor. :p
 
Southcoast strings tuned to Bb really make a baritone come to life. To me, baritones tuned to standard DGBE tuning sound dull and the strings sound thunky (is that a word?). Design it so that it either sounds better with standard tuning, or design it specifically for a higher tuning.
 
after reading Nongdam's reviews on his new Lfdm...I would say he needs to build into the neck....neck relief...since he uses a carbon rod in the neck...it has to be built in....
I never understood what neck relief was/meant but now I have a better understanding thanks to Andrew who had 4 Lfdm's at his shop

my 2 cents
 
The first thing you have to ask yourself is, do I want a baritone sound, tuned to DGBE, or do I want a uke that looks like a baritone but sounds like a tenor, tuned like a tenor and plays like a tenor. If the answer is a tenor, then there is no point in having a baritone. The lower baritone voice is unique and quite lovely, why would anyone want to change that except maybe they can't be bothered to learn the chords progressions for that tuning.
 
If you're going to "throw away all previous standards for size, scale etc" then I question whether you're actually designing a baritone. The baritone ukulele has standards, and a tuning, that by definition, make it a baritone. I confess I don't understand what it is you're asking Bob.
 
What is the standard for baris? I don't own a bari so get confused as there seems to be diff't scale lengths and I understand changing the key by a full step but you can go either GCEA or DGBE?

I would put in a titanium truss rod for neck relief.

I personally don't like it when a uke can't fit in several cases. Worse is that it will only fit in the next larger case, which would probably be parlor guitars or regular guitars.
 
I understand your question Bob. With the fresh look and thought being put into it, I am betting it will be epic. I will add a few thoughts.
When I was young there was a musician that would always stop by the shop named Buddy Fo. For many years he was one of Hawaii's top acts and he played a tenor guitar with a high D -GBE strung with Nylon strings. Wow did he make it sing. My dad's favorite instrument is still his old Martin tenor guitar tuned that way with scalloped bracing for Nylon strings and my brother is just finishing up a suprise for my dad to those specs. A tenor guitar is basically a baritone with a 23" scale and a larger body. The tension for DGBE in this scale is much closer to that of a tenor but with the lower key of a baritone. The 20" standard scale is a more relaxed tension for a mellow vibe that's cool. But as you go longer in scale you get more lively, more ukulele brightness. Especially with the high D. Speaking of the high D, Benny Chong would come in with buddy. He plays the high D baritone in a regular scale-
But my suggestion would be to try maybe a slightly longer scale. Like 21 or 21.5"? Any which way you go I'm sure Luis will make a wonderful, unique, and very musical instrument.
 
Perhaps you should throw away the word Baritone too
 
LifesShort said:
Southcoast strings tuned to Bb really make a baritone come to life. To me, baritones tuned to standard DGBE tuning sound dull and the strings sound thunky (is that a word?). Design it so that it either sounds better with standard tuning, or design it specifically for a higher tuning.
Click to expand...

Southcoast's philosophy is unique. Most string makers try to make the "too small for its tuning" bari sound better by softening the d string a bit, whereas SC says, "That's too low...tune it here..." I would LOVE to see a discussion between a few of the high-end stringmakers talking about why they think their ideas are the best for our instruments.

(I'm loving my SC Machete set for Soprano, High G Aquilas on my Concert)

I'd be interested in seeing a slightly larger bodied instrument resonating below the low E string. But if you do that, you probably should include the case.

You know....a normal bari tuned low G would probably sound pretty sweet...
 
AndrewKuker said:
I understand your question Bob. With the fresh look and thought being put into it, I am betting it will be epic. I will add a few thoughts.
When I was young there was a musician that would always stop by the shop named Buddy Fo. For many years he was one of Hawaii's top acts and he played a tenor guitar with a high D -GBE strung with Nylon strings. Wow did he make it sing. My dad's favorite instrument is still his old Martin tenor guitar tuned that way with scalloped bracing for Nylon strings and my brother is just finishing up a suprise for my dad to those specs. A tenor guitar is basically a baritone with a 23" scale and a larger body. The tension for DGBE in this scale is much closer to that of a tenor but with the lower key of a baritone. The 20" standard scale is a more relaxed tension for a mellow vibe that's cool. But as you go longer in scale you get more lively, more ukulele brightness. Especially with the high D. Speaking of the high D, Benny Chong would come in with buddy. He plays the high D baritone in a regular scale-
But my suggestion would be to try maybe a slightly longer scale. Like 21 or 21.5"? Any which way you go I'm sure Luis will make a wonderful, unique, and very musical instrument.
Click to expand...



Nice video of Benny

Andrew I guess your Dad does not check the UU...or his surprise not a surprise....haha
 
I'm not sure why the Baritone doesn't seem to get much respect around here. It seems like some folks are always trying to change something about it. If one isn't happy with the scale or tuning, then don't play it. I wonder if those who play the tenor saxophone are always trying to change the baritone sax as well. :)
 
Thanks for sharing the video Andrew. It reminded me my last trip to Hawaii as I saw Benny and also reminded me of meeting you and Len at the Ukulele Picnic. I've been listening to a lot of Django Reinhardt lately and I listened to Benny on the way to work today, what a great performer. I would love to hear jazz ukulele on a bari.

If 20" is the standard scale, why do bari scale lengths differ and still called bari? At least for other sizes, they call it long-neck, even though I haven't seen short-neck.

Bari is probably more in Luis' wheelhouse since he's a guitar builder and baris are closer to guitars than tenor ukes.
 
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nongdam said:
Thanks for sharing the video Andrew. It reminded me my last trip to Hawaii as I saw Benny and also reminded me of meeting you and Len at the Ukulele Picnic. I've been listening to a lot of Django Reinhardt lately and I listened to Benny on the way to work today, what a great performer. I would love to hear jazz ukulele on a bari.

If 20" is the standard scale, why do bari scale lengths differ and still called bari? At least for other sizes, they call it long-neck, even though I haven't seen short-neck.

Bari is probably more in Luis' wheelhouse since he's a guitar builder and baris are closer to guitars than tenor ukes.
Click to expand...

Scale lengths are mostly "standard" because there are pre-made templates and jigs for cutting your fret slots. Typical "long necks" are just using the next template up. Tenor neck on concert etc. You don't see a long neck concert with a 16" scale very often because that means the builder has to measure and hand cut all the slots or hand make the table saw jig that you can just buy for the various sizes. When a builder says -why would you do that? then it wouldnt be that size...I just hear, I don't want to do that, that's a lot of work just to experiment. If someone is willing to rethink scale length then I applaud the effort. A baritone ukulele is tuned DGBE and the size and scale have some wiggle room without being considered a different instrument. Why would someone say that this is wrong? One reason might be that they would have to remake their jigs or do a lot of manual math and labor. And I would say, I understand, but don't pretend to know that nothing can be better than the standard way everything is already done. A century ago Chris Martin and Orville Gibson made all kinds of instruments in all kinds of sizes and scales. Experimenting is the first step to innovating. Not to be looked down on.
 
I would start by looking at what players consider to be the weaknesses in the standard design.

1) Long neck would benefit from a truss rod.
2) Better (higher) string tension could be achived by making the scale length longer. So I'd go to 21 inches, but maybe move the bridge back an inch to keep overall length the same.
3) Add to the width and depth of the body - just enough to give it more umph.
4) Sound port.

You'd still have a "standard" baritone in DGBE at about 30 inches in length. But it would be mightier.
 
allanr said:
I would start by looking at what players consider to be the weaknesses in the standard design.

1) Long neck would benefit from a truss rod.
2) Better (higher) string tension could be achived by making the scale length longer. So I'd go to 21 inches, but maybe move the bridge back an inch to keep overall length the same.
3) Add to the width and depth of the body - just enough to give it more umph.
4) Sound port.

You'd still have a "standard" baritone in DGBE at about 30 inches in length. But it would be mightier.
Click to expand...

+1 on the mightier bari, except #4, but that's just me.. I am intrigued by the longer scale Vegas such as this one:
http://antebelluminstruments.blogspot.com/2011/01/c1950-vega-baritone-ukulele-deluxe-solo.html
More tension / longer neck could only help, bigger body too.
 
allanr and peewee, I agree that the scale length currently inhibits low D, and for better modulation I would also agree greater volume is needed. It sounds like if we were experimenting, we could start wit a 21.25 scale length and and increase in body volume of 10%. But , I can't afford to build too many of these so I am trying the narrow the fields. I would really like to hear from Dirk Wormhoudt of Southcoast strings on this issue, as I respect his knowledge on the acoustics of stringed instruments, I would hope he wants to enter this discussion.
Low D is the issue, the standard baritone design and size does not have enough volume to accommodate the low D modulation. There is just not enough space for the true sound to develope. The sound actually bounces back on itself and muddies the tone.
Bob
 
I don't think anyone wants to "Get Rid Of" or fundamentally change baritones. Heck, I know I want at least two. One tuned "normal" and the other as a Cuatro. Now what'd I do with all those billions I inherited . . .:D
 
bobmyers said:
allanr and peewee, I agree that the scale length currently inhibits low D, and for better modulation I would also agree greater volume is needed. It sounds like if we were experimenting, we could start wit a 21.25 scale length and and increase in body volume of 10%. But , I can't afford to build too many of these so I am trying the narrow the fields. I would really like to hear from Dirk Wormhoudt of Southcoast strings on this issue, as I respect his knowledge on the acoustics of stringed instruments, I would hope he wants to enter this discussion.
Low D is the issue, the standard baritone design and size does not have enough volume to accommodate the low D modulation. There is just not enough space for the true sound to develope. The sound actually bounces back on itself and muddies the tone.
Bob
Click to expand...

I can't agree that the low D is muddy on a well made baritone. If you increase the scale length and then also increase the body size, guess what is going to happen? You will be right back where you started because you will need the longer scale to fill the needs of the bigger body. The result, pretty much the same sound, just a bigger instrument. Try it, see what happens.
 
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