Taylor in on the game? I don't think so...

I note a message at the bottom of one of the posters says 'It's about time Taylor got in on the game...' Anyone figured out why they haven't? It's because there is not much money in this game. The father of Paul Okami in the video about koAloha instruments says this telling phrase: 'You don't see a Mercedes in the parking lot do you?'

Believe you me Undergrounders, it is a hard business to be in and the big boys are sensible in staying away from it. I am doing a bling build at present which takes just as long to build as a standard entry custom guitar, is more difficult and painstaking and I get a third of the price of a guitar for it (if I still did guitars....).

So your answer is: They can't afford to! and I suspect, given that it has taken Martin 10 years to get their act together, They dont know how!

Choosing the life of a luthier is definitely not the path to millions of bucks, I'm sure almost all the builders on the forum will agree with that statement.

That being said, companies like fender and taylor are huge companies that will have the advantage of economies of scale that smaller companies of say like a koaloha do not have. This gives them a shot at larger profit margins and they can bank of their brand equity to lead a first round of purchases from early adopters.

Fender obviously saw value or an opportunity is creating an ukulele line. Only time will tell if they are successful,but I would definitely say that it is not out of the question for a company like Taylor to do the same.

Joe (Souza) was telling me of a conversation he had with Bob Taylor. Bob pretty much said he can't understand how he (Joe) could produce instruments at such a low cost. In his mind (Bob's), it takes just as much effort to build an `ukulele, as it does to build a guitar. When you think about it, its true.

Yes, more bracing, more wood, etc, so cost goes up with a guitar. However, any builder will tell you, cost of materials is about 20% (or less, or, sometimes more) of final retail. The rest of the elements are there - neck shaping, joining, bent sides, linings, bookmatching tops and backs, fretboard slotting, profiling, arching, tapering, filing, sanding finishing, buffing, stringing, tuning, et al.

For Bob to build guitars to be profitable for him (once he tools up, of course), I would imagine an all Koa model (with the compulsory inlay items) would fall just below their average Koa guitars, so lets say $3K (although Spruce/Koa goes for more, and all Koa goes for over $5K).

Can you imagine if the definition of profitable would carry through to our local factories? Even if they charged 33% less (than a potential Taylor), it would still be double of where they're currently at.

Some day, we may look in the mirror and realize what we're really into, and ask why.
Of course, then we'll look around, and know the reason why we do what we do. You just gotta love it.

-Aaron

Kekani said:

Joe (Souza) was telling me of a conversation he had with Bob Taylor. Bob pretty much said he can't understand how he (Joe) could produce instruments at such a low cost. In his mind (Bob's), it takes just as much effort to build an `ukulele, as it does to build a guitar. When you think about it, its true.

Yes, more bracing, more wood, etc, so cost goes up with a guitar. However, any builder will tell you, cost of materials is about 20% (or less, or, sometimes more) of final retail. The rest of the elements are there - neck shaping, joining, bent sides, linings, bookmatching tops and backs, fretboard slotting, profiling, arching, tapering, filing, sanding finishing, buffing, stringing, tuning, et al.

For Bob to build guitars to be profitable for him (once he tools up, of course), I would imagine an all Koa model (with the compulsory inlay items) would fall just below their average Koa guitars, so lets say $3K (although Spruce/Koa goes for more, and all Koa goes for over $5K).

Can you imagine if the definition of profitable would carry through to our local factories? Even if they charged 33% less (than a potential Taylor), it would still be double of where they're currently at.

Some day, we may look in the mirror and realize what we're really into, and ask why.
Of course, then we'll look around, and know the reason why we do what we do. You just gotta love it.

-Aaron

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Aaron, if they forsake most of the hand work that you and other master luthiers do and use CNC machines, mass-production techniques, and the same cookie-cutter designs without exotic woods, then just concentrate on good setups, do you see more "brands" getting into the mix? Do you anticipate that bringing more business to you and your peers as more people get hooked on ukulele and want better quality?

Pippin said:

Aaron, if they forsake most of the hand work that you and other master luthiers do and use CNC machines, mass-production techniques, and the same cookie-cutter designs without exotic woods, then just concentrate on good setups, do you see more "brands" getting into the mix? Do you anticipate that bringing more business to you and your peers as more people get hooked on ukulele and want better quality?

Click to expand...

As for what I would gather from Taylor, with their automated processes they'd implement, cost would still be high in the long run - they'd have to recoup the investment. Exact reason why Fender went overseas, and as Pete stated, Martin is still working on it. Perfect example, $5K for a 5K. Profitable for them? More than likely. Moving volumes? Probably not. Worth it? Only Martin knows.

As for bringing more business to the custom market, the high end custom market in particular, it is a very limited clientele who ventures there. While my builds personally I don't put up there, I'm glad some of my artwork is. Problem is, everyone wants better quality, but not everyone is willing to pay. Therein lies the advantage of the internet forum - tips, tricks and tweaks can be shared to hot rod your instrument. Of course, you can't make a Toyota a Lexus just by changing the badge (or can you?).

Just my $.02 - Aaron

Pete Howlett said:

I note a message at the bottom of one of the posters says 'It's about time Taylor got in on the game...' Anyone figured out why they haven't? It's because there is not much money in this game. The father of Paul Okami in the video about koAloha instruments says this telling phrase: 'You don't see a Mercedes in the parking lot do you?'

Believe you me Undergrounders, it is a hard business to be in and the big boys are sensible in staying away from it. I am doing a bling build at present which takes just as long to build as a standard entry custom guitar, is more difficult and painstaking and I get a third of the price of a guitar for it (if I still did guitars....).

So your answer is: They can't afford to! and I suspect, given that it has taken Martin 10 years to get their act together, They dont know how!

Click to expand...

It is just a joke. I collect Taylors and have spoken with Bob Taylor himself. Didn't you see my Photochopped headstock avatar as well...its just a goof off. What woudl they do...have a uke with an NT neck and Expression System? Sheesh. I own a Kanile'a...which actually is as close as you get to a Taylor ukulele. Joe and Kristen Souza have met Taylor execs and have toured their facilities to try and emulate some of their processes. In fact, they use a similar UV finish...although they don't use a $500,000 robot to do it! The do use CNC necks as well and have their own CNC machine in house..a nod to Taylor (although all the big makers, including Martin, now use CNC machines for many of their parts, including necks.)

Never say never.....Larivee is returning to the ukulele market after a few years hiatus...Breedlove makes them Santa Cruz Guitars and now Collings Guitars....I have examples of all of them in my collection Taylor??? never say never Gibson....hmmmm the mongoose is now digging around...

as a side note .... i added a picture to my name in the profile but it doesnt show up on threads like you guys? how come? somebody help the computor challanged

MGM said:

as a side note .... i added a picture to my name in the profile but it doesnt show up on threads like you guys? how come? somebody help the computor challanged

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You need to also put that picture on your "Avatar". Right now you only have it on your profile picture. Look for "Edit Avatar" on the user CP.

Thanks GX now what does avitar stand for in comp lingo

MGM said:

Never say never.....Larivee is returning to the ukulele market after a few years hiatus...Breedlove makes them Santa Cruz Guitars and now Collings Guitars....I have examples of all of them in my collection Taylor??? never say never Gibson....hmmmm the mongoose is now digging around...

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You are right...great observation as usual, Mike!

I went guitar shopping with a friend today, and he chose a $400 Seagull when his budget was more than twice that. Made in Canada, cheaper than many Asian imports, AND sounds just as good as any Martin or Gibson or Taylor under $1200? I think Seagull could really shake up the uke scene if they tried.

MGM said:

...what does avitar stand for in comp lingo

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It basically means your online representation. Merriam-Webster gives us the full definition of avatar.

The Taylor company produces over 250 finished guitars in A DAY! Martin does about the same. Bob Taylor uses about 75 CNC machines probably running all day. I own three. I've met Bob a few times, and toured the factory. I see them every year at NAMM.

This approach is far from any of the uke builders we know. Most ukes are hand crafted. We should appreciate our instruments more for that reason.

Big Boys getting in on the action...

MGM said:

Never say never.....Larivee is returning to the ukulele market after a few years hiatus...Breedlove makes them Santa Cruz Guitars and now Collings Guitars....I have examples of all of them in my collection Taylor??? never say never Gibson....hmmmm the mongoose is now digging around...

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Yep, the bigger guys are getting into it and I am sure are looking at it even more closely now considering current market conditions...

I think the bigger makers could make a LOT of money at making them because of their brand image, distribution, and economies of scale but think a lot of it is they honestly just don't realize how profitable it could be in the long run. I've worked with pretty much every guitar and ukulele maker out there, and most recently Bill Collins picked up some koa from me to build a few ukes. He said he just "fell in love with it" otherwise was completely non-pulsed about the ukulele, since he was a "guitar guy." so take those 20 sets of NON curly koa, put some frills on it, add the brand and he'll probably be able to sell them easily between $1500 - $2000 to loyal Collings guitar customers who figure if Bill is making it, there must be something to it.

The other thing to remember is in times of boom, the bigger guys aren't going to take away time from their mainstay business to build other products. if they are at 100% capacity there is no need to do anything else. and the only way to do that is to add on workers, etc. Now take an economy like we have now, where staff might be idle 20% of the time because of no orders. they still have to get paid, because you cannot just fire everyone. even if you fire 20% of the staff, that still doesn't mean you'll be operating at 100% capacity. so you find other things to make and sell- and ukuleles are smaller, take less space, quicker to make, etc. and you've got the potential for additional revenue.

My feeling is most of the bigger makers with still ONE brand (not like Fender or Gibson) want to just stay focused on making guitars. those guitar makers that have an affiinity for koa seem more likely to delve into the uke market, like Larrivee. the other thing I think most custom builders are neglecting to think about is the use of veneers and mass production techniques, even in the USA at Taylor's factory (not just in overseas factories). They have recently started using veneers (the new solid body is a veneer top- about 1/50" of wood!) and are laying it up themselves at their factory. Use of veneers and plywood streamline the production to allow a consistent quality product at a reasonable cost. I think if anyone could do it best it probably is Taylor, since they seem to keep coming out with smaller and smaller guitars and isn't their Baby Taylor just a Jumbo 6-string Baritone?

my 2, okay maybe 3, cents...

The other component of the uke that most overlook is the error scale. The larger instruments such as guitars can actually handle a small amount of error in the building of the instrument with little noticeable effect.

The smaller the instrument the less room for error before the sound is affected. That means you have to pay closer attention to what you are doing, and that means ultimately more man hours.