Theory Question: External vs. Internal Tuning (Reference Source vs. String to String)

I'll apologize right from the outset on the length of this post, because its difficult to articulate this question in a few short words, and I'm not even sure if this is the proper section of the forum to post it, but here goes . . .

I've been playing guitar and uke now for years, so you'd think I'd be able to answer this question myself, but I don't have any formal training or education in music theory, so I really can't answer it, and consequently, I'm gonna give it a shot here on the Uke Underground.

As we all know, there are numerous ways to tune a guitar or uke - the two most common methods being what I'll call simply "External" vs. "Internal":

1) EXTERNAL (Independent Reference Source): Tune each of the non-fretted (open) strings, independent of one another, to a reference note from an external source like an electronic or other such tuner.

2) INTERNAL (String-to-String): Tuning each non-fretted (open) string to a reference note on the same instrument, generated from fretting its immediate neighbor string, typically at frets #4-5.

Seems simple enough, right?

However, as most of us also know, these two methods can produce two somewhat different tuning profiles that can sound widely different from one another when certain chords are strummed or when comparing single notes up the scale across all strings.

For obvious reasons, the 'Internal' or string-to-string method produces a much more natural or consonant sounding scale when playing melody or lead (i.e., individual notes across multiple strings), but it can sound somewhat dissonant or sour at times when strumming full chords. This is because when we fret or depress each string in the string-to-string method, we're stretching the string length slightly, so the tuned notes keep getting sharper and sharper as we progress from bass to treble strings. This phenomenon seems particularly true with steel strings (i.e., guitar, banjo or mandolin), even when the intonation is adjusted perfectly using 12th fret harmonics.

So, my question for everyone is this . . . in purely technical terms (i.e., from the standpoint of a music instructor or music theorist), which of these two methods is considered to be the most proper, and which do most recording artists and stringed instrument professionals prefer?

Thanks for listening, and thanks ahead-of-time for any and all responses.

Flea Flicker-
Great question. When I was a kid in the 70's and played guitar I used a pitch pipe on the first string and then the 5-4-5 method you mentioned for the remaining strings. Whenever jamming with others I would tune first string off another player in order to be in sync , following the 5-4-5 method on the remaining strings. When I started playing ukulele three years ago I would use a electronic tuner on all four strings and then fine tweaking by ear. Recently I purchased an eight string ukulele (see Pono MTD-8 review). Same as four string, GCEA except strings are doubled. The first two (G & C) can be tuned an octave down or up from its mate. I first tune the G with my electronic tuner. Then I press both strings at #5 fret and adjust until it reads a C. The next string C is tuned electronically and then I press both down at at #4 fret until my meter regretters a E. The E and A paired strings are simple. Tune the E electronically and then tune the adjoining string open until they sing together. Same for the A strings. Once this is done I then tweak the E and A pairs by ear. Like yourself I'm self taught and have yet to take any music theory but I hope my 2 cents helps. good luck!

If the instrument is set up well there will be little difference in the result. If the instrument is not set up well, and has poor first-position intonation because of a high nut, and the instrument happens to be a reentrant uke then tuning string to string will typically make better sounding chords because there are so many unisons in open position on a reentrant uke and unisons tend to be very obvious when they aren't spot on.

So, if I happen to be playing a reentrant uke that has wonky first-position intonation I'll tune the C string to a reference, then, I'll fret the C string at the 4th fret and tune the E string. Then, I fret the E string at the third and tune the G string. Then, I fret the G string at the second and tune the A string. This "cleans up" most of the open position chords that have unisons (i.e. the G, G7, D, Dm, A, Am, etc.). It's not a substitute for setting the uke up properly but it can get you through in a pinch.

John

Hey flea flicker-
I'm an old fart and forgot to mention a link in my two cent response that may help you. please view Tunning @
http://www.southcoastukes.com/tunings.htm Good luck, Machete

you're not comparing an internally-tuned instrument to an externally-tuned instrument, are you?

If you are, then there's bound to be differences between the two, differently-tuned instruments.
the one tuned externally should be 'truer' if tuned correctly and if the tuner is accurate. the one
tuned internally depends on the ear of the human tuner.

If you're NOT comparing two differently-tuned instruments then, are you saying you detect a difference
on the instrument itself, so that when tuned one way the instrument sounds better than when tuned
the other way?

Sorry for my misunderstanding. Like Machete, I try to get a note from a digital tuner or another player,
then do 'internal' tuning for the rest of the strings. Unless I have a common point of reference with other
players, I'm bound to internally tune my own instrument either too high or too low with reference to other
instruments that have been digitally tuned.

Not sure if this helps you, but I had fun trying to type out what I thought I meant!

keep uke'in',

I always use an electronic tuner, as do my regular playmates. I usually carry a spare tuner to jam functions, in case someone within earshot needs it.

SailQwest said:

I always use an electronic tuner, as do my regular playmates. I usually carry a spare tuner to jam functions, in case someone within earshot needs it.

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Haha! I was at a recent meetup when someone said, "Here, you can borrow my tuner" and the guy said "Don't need it, I'm already tuned" and the other person said "No, here, please borrow my tuner. Really. You need it."

Wow! Some great responses, guys! Thanx so much for sharing your thoughts on this. Let me try and address your responses one at a time.

Machete: Thanks for your summary on the 8-string uke tuning and the added link. It was all very helpful and I follow what you're saying completely.

John: Thanks for your post, and I follow what you're saying as well, but I'm afraid can't necessarily agree with the assertion that it relates in some way to intonation or setup. In my own case, whether its my guitars or ukes, their setups are all flawless with respect to nut, bridge, action and intonation, and what I'm referring to here really isn't related. Rather, its a strict side-by-side comparison of two identical and flawlessly setup instruments, one of them with each of its open (non-fretted) strings tuned exclusively to an external source (an electronic tuner), and the other one (with identical bass string tuning), having its open (non-fretted) strings all tuned relative to its adjacent fretted neighbor. Those two instruments (whether uke, guitar or whatever), and those two slightly different tunings, will in-fact provide different tuning profiles, with the string-to-string variety having much 'sharper' treble strings in comparison. That's been my experience, and that's at the heart of my question here. As I said in my initial post, it has to do with the stretching of the strings (when fretted), which sharpens the note relative to an open string, so it is independent of any intonation considerations, as I see it.

Rod: Thank you for your post as well, and to be clear, in this question, I'm not concerned about tuning to others in a performing or gigging situation. I'm simply referring to two identical instruments tuned using the two (slightly different) methods. Whether guitar or uke, they would both have the exact same tune or pitch at their last (or thickest) bass string, but their pitch in the remaining treble strings would differ slightly, based on whether they were tuned 'open" (relative to an unrelated external source) or fretted (relative to an adjacent fretted string on the very same instrument). I hope that helps.

Anyway, I'll hope for some more responses to this question from other members too, but from what I'm hearing (or reading) here, I suspect that the best all-around solution may be to use the electronic tuner only for the last or thickest bass string (as I usually do), using an electronic tuner, but to then avoid the electronic tuner on the remaining strings, preferring instead to tune them to their neighbors. And that too, for the most part, is what I've been doing historically. However, if that's the case (i.e., if that's what the vast majority of professional musicians do), then it sure makes the need for all of these complex, elaborate, sophisticated and overly expensive electronic tuners (i.e., the one's that tune ALL strings, not just the bass string), seem kinda silly and unnecessary! They might come in handy for fine tuned settings like intonation, but otherwise, what's the point?

IMO it really does depend on intonation and setup. I follow what you're saying about different vibrating string lengths. But in my experience that only matters when the uke isn't well set up and/or just has bad intonation no matter how it's tuned. Having said that, I never use an electronic tuner. I do use an A-440 tuning fork on the 1st string and tune the other strings relative to that A. But then we're talking about relative pitch.

In any case, I don't understand why others' tuning methods are important. If some method works for you and the instrument, it doesn't seem to matter how other musicians choose to tune their own instruments. I may be missing something here, but this is my opinion.

peaceweaver3 said:

IMO it really does depend on intonation and setup. I follow what you're saying about different vibrating string lengths. But in my experience that only matters when the uke isn't well set up and/or just has bad intonation no matter how it's tuned. Having said that, I never use an electronic tuner. I do use an A-440 tuning fork on the 1st string and tune the other strings relative to that A. But then we're talking about relative pitch.

In any case, I don't understand why others' tuning methods are important. If some method works for you and the instrument, it doesn't seem to matter how other musicians choose to tune their own instruments. I may be missing something here, but this is my opinion.

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No-no, you're fine! And I understand you completely. In fact, what you've described as your preferred method of tuning (string-to-string relative to a primary string tuned to external reference), is what I'm finding works best for me too. Although, I'll admit that this method has proven to be somewhat problematic for me on 6-10 string instruments, particularly those strung with steel (not nylon). Basically, as an amateur with very little formal training in music theory, I'm just trying to learn something from what I'm actually witnessing.

Anyway, thanks again.

peaceweaver3 said:

IMO it really does depend on intonation and setup. I follow what you're saying about different vibrating string lengths. But in my experience that only matters when the uke isn't well set up and/or just has bad intonation no matter how it's tuned. Having said that, I never use an electronic tuner. I do use an A-440 tuning fork on the 1st string and tune the other strings relative to that A. But then we're talking about relative pitch.

In any case, I don't understand why others' tuning methods are important. If some method works for you and the instrument, it doesn't seem to matter how other musicians choose to tune their own instruments. I may be missing something here, but this is my opinion.

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Not to be argumentative here, but again, this has 'zero' to do with intonation or setup. Why? Because as I said earlier, if you have two identical instruments (both with flawless setup and intonation), and you tune one of them, using fretted notes, string-to-string, relative to a primary bass string tuned to an external reference, while the other (identical) instrument is tuned exclusively to an external source, via all 'open' strings, you will have different tuning patterns, period! Nothing to do with intonation. Intonation has to do with the total (but fixed) string length from bridge to nut, not the momentary stretching (string lengthening) that occurs when using the string-to-string tuning method.

And you're right, when you're not playing with others, the tuning methods of others "isn't" important - never said it was. As an amateur, I'm only interested in knowing what other 'professional' musicians do. That was the point.

Thanks again.

Given a well set up instrument, I usually use an electronic tuner to tune the open strings and get me in the right zone, then I immediately strum a chord in first position and use the "master tuner" - my ears! After a little relative string to string tuning, and playing in a few positions I might need to slightly tweak a string or two. As I play I can usually notice if something's a little out and I adjust accordingly - only occasionally deploying the electronic tuner if I get totally out.
For me it's a matter of hearing - feeling?, when the music has lost it's "sweetness". You don't need perfect pitch or super ears, just developing a feel for it, and backing it up with whatever tools you want to employ.
My attitude is that in tuning - as in life - it's a matter of managing compromise creatively, and playing from the heart.

Strumdaddy said:

Given a well set up instrument, I usually use an electronic tuner to tune the open strings and get me in the right zone, then I immediately strum a chord in first position and use the "master tuner" - my ears! After a little relative string to string tuning, and playing in a few positions I might need to slightly tweak a string or two. As I play I can usually notice if something's a little out and I adjust accordingly - only occasionally deploying the electronic tuner if I get totally out.
For me it's a matter of hearing - feeling?, when the music has lost it's "sweetness". You don't need perfect pitch or super ears, just developing a feel for it, and backing it up with whatever tools you want to employ.
My attitude is that in tuning - as in life - it's a matter of managing compromise creatively, and playing from the heart.

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Such a great answer!

Flea Flicker said:

As an amateur, I'm only interested in knowing what other 'professional' musicians do. That was the point.

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I have seen many 'professional' musicians who use clip-on tuners on stage.

If you are playing with others, it is paramount that you are in tune with them.

There's something about 'temper' in tuning and I don't really understand it so can't explain it, but it might give you something to research.

Nearly all of the gigging musicians that I have had the good fortune to play with have used electronic tuners (for all their strings), and that is the same standard that I use.

In my experience, a lot more people think they can tune without an electronic tuner than can actually tune without one. YMMV.

Your guitars and ukuleles are built to be tuned using what is known as equal temperament. If the instrument is perfect in every way, (design, execution of design, intonation, set-up...) and the tuner's and player's pressure on strings is always, perfectly consistent, the only way to achieve tuning as accurate as you're describing is using what you call "internal" tuning, using only one reference point.

This is because if you tune one string to one reference note (say A440) and another string to another reference note (like C523.3), you've already corrupted the temperament. Any pure interval (or perfect relationship between two notes) is not tempered. More individual reference notes and you further complicate the problem.

Bare in mind that, although this is an over-simplification of a very complex subject, to say this is splitting hairs is an enormous understatement.

Please notice that big "if". I doubt any ukulele is so perfect as might make either system perfect. Either way they're just different ways to tune. Is there a difference in sound?. Yes (for those who notice). Is one better on a guitar or ukulele? Impossible to say yes.

I usually tune "internally" but only because I don't need to get out the electronic tuner to do it. I enjoy an instrument tuned using an electronic device just as well. I think it's a bad idea to over-analyze the merits of either.

I don't trust my ear anywhere near enough to use anything but an electronic tuner all the time. Sure, the ear kicks in when something doesn't feel right, and I'll make minor adjustments. But as a starting point, especially when playing with others, the external reference is the safest way to do it in lieu of not being gifted with perfect pitch.

This is a great topic, and I've struggled with this issue myself for more time than I care to admit.

As others have touched on intonation, temperament, sweetening with regard to the internal vs. external tuning...

I have found the following to be true for me:

a) for recording purposes, I ALWAYS initially tune to an electronic standard pitch reference, i.e., PW NS Micro clip-on tuner, iPad app 'instuner' or the one built-in to Garageband - the reason being that if I come back to a recording that I made 6 months ago, and want to add an acoustic instrument to it, I need to have an absolute pitch reference for tuning, if I used the 'internal' tuning instead, it would skew the reference pitch and then I'd have to either use Auto-Tune or Melodyne to correct the pitch reference, both of with make the sound 'warbly' or electronic sounding, and if I wanted that (which I do not), I'd use a software instrument instead and avoid the hassle all-together.

b) in other situations I'd strive for 'concert pitch', when playing alone, i.e., just for practice, when I first picked up the guitar, I'd strum an E Maj chord and if it sounded off, I'd do the 'internal' tuning. Most of the time this was fine, as the tuning was 'relative'. After 35 yrs of playing guitar and either only using an A440 tuning fork for the A string, and then doing the 'internal' tuning method, or finding a nearby piano and tuning one string on the guitar to the piano, and then doing the 'internal' method. If in a group of other musicians, I'd get their A string, and then to the 'internal' method, I never previously owned or used an electronic tuner before the ukulele but I got one because there were SO many questions in the beginning (11 months ago) and coming from guitar was more a hindrance than a help in terms of how the instrument works. Now, I look back and see that lots of things are in fact easier for me on the uke, and the guitar is now kind of a PITA to play. My first ukes had really bad intonation, and if I did the 'internal' tuning, they were NOT in tune. I needed the electronic pitch reference. Later I learned how to compensate the saddle, level frets, and adjust the nut slots, and now even my $26 Mahalo U-30 soprano has really good intonation up to the 9th fret, and I can actually tune it with the 'internal' method - and having the 'right' strings (Worth Brown 'light' BL) for the instrument helps tremendously and can not be overstated but that is a whole Pandora's Box that is discussed at length elsewhere (hint: check my comment history for the SCO thread)

c) what you are describing whereby fretting a note and it seems 'off' or sharp, lets say at the 5th fret, is EXACTLY an example of POOR intonation. If you do the 'internal' tuning, and your string geometry is skewed, the 4th and 5th frets are not going to yield the proper pitch reference that you need for the other string that you are tuning. That is why when intonation is poor, and you do the internal tuning, and then strum chords, even in first position, they sound terribly de-tuned. Some folks either can not tell the difference because their ear is not trained or they simply do not care - youtube is filled with videos of 12-yr olds banging away on a guitar that might be tolerable to listen to if it were tuned with an electronic tuner as a pitch reference (after the intonation is fixed) as opposed to the 'internal' tuning method AND poor intonation, which is simply, and I'm being kind here - awful.

d) I have yet to encounter an instrument, guitar or ukulele that has 100% perfect intonation. The 12th fret might be spot on, but elsewhere on the fretboard you may be 5-10 cents sharp or flat, still. Depending upon the construction of the instruments, there are some that can not even be fixed with proper nut slots, and proper saddle compensation. Even with the instruments from Magic Fluke Company (Fluke and Flea) with the engineered polycarbonate fretboard, and glass resin saddle/bridge - the intonation is not perfect, it is much better than most, yet is till off by 2-5 cents in some places. Other examples of 'engineered' plastic fretboards are the Outdoor Ukulele and also the Korala and Woodi, and yet while these might have better intonation than from a random $100 Amazon uke without a setup, they too are NOT with absolutely perfect intonation.

e) being that tuning is all 'relative' as what stevepetergal said about temperament (and many other good points too), many folks do not aim for 'perfect' some aim for 'good enough' based upon their own hearing perception, and yet others still might aim for a more 'musical' or sweetened sound whereby the instrument is more ENHARMONIC with itself via the tempering of the tuning, as opposed to locked to the absolute frequencies as shown on a tuner such as the instuner iPad app (no affiliation, I just like using it)

Having said all this, I find it is easy to get lost in pursuit of perfection, which in fact may be unattainable, and going down that path you lose sight of the goal, and all the joy as well.

Being 'in tune' is very important to me, but not so much that I will spend more than a few minutes on it, and if I can not properly tune the instrument, and it is not malfunctioning in some way, I will immediately change the strings.

This has solved many problems with tuning, as some strings just lose their pitch stability over time, and some sooner than others. I'm not sure of the cause but the simple solution is a $5 set of strings and 15 minutes of my time, so I dont spend a lot of effort thinking about it, as I'd rather be playing.

What strumdaddy said above is probably the best approach unless you want to attach multiple tuners to your headstock for relative/comparative accuracy and blow your pitch pipe for hours making tiny adjustments at the tuning pegs until all of your devices agree that you are in tune, while in the end the most important 'device' is your ears, and when you can learn to tune by ear, and then verify to the tuner, you get better over time, and tuning 'internal' or 'external' becomes a non-issue and is quickly resolved.

Thanks to all of those who have responded to this thread. There have been some truly insightful and well-thought-out replies here, coming in some cases from very experience players, and that's precisely what I was hoping for. So again, my thanks to all.

Essentially, the principal or central question that I posed in this thread has been answered; namely, that many if not most players rely on the Internal (string-to-string) tuning method, using a single primary external reference note obtained either from an electronic tuner (when playing alone) or from a fellow musician (when playing with others). And as obvious or simple as it may seem, this informal consensus is extremely valuable to me, because it reaffirms what I myself have witnessed or experienced in terms of the Internal (string-to-string) method being the generally superior approach.

Its funny - I posed this very same question on another on-line music forum, and one of the respondents there made a comment that seemed stunningly simple, yet it was incredibly insightful. On the one hand, he said what most of us here already know; that in the final analysis, neither of the two methods (Internal nor External) is ideal on its own - that a hybrid or blending of the two methods is probably best. But then he added the following . . . "I play more fretted notes than open strings, so it makes more sense to tune to fretted notes", and I think the sheer practicality of his rationale on this says it all.

Thanks again to everyone who contributed here!

Flea Flicker said:

Not to be argumentative here, but again, this has 'zero' to do with intonation or setup. Why? Because as I said earlier, if you have two identical instruments (both with flawless setup and intonation), and you tune one of them, using fretted notes, string-to-string, relative to a primary bass string tuned to an external reference, while the other (identical) instrument is tuned exclusively to an external source, via all 'open' strings, you will have different tuning patterns, period! Nothing to do with intonation. Intonation has to do with the total (but fixed) string length from bridge to nut, not the momentary stretching (string lengthening) that occurs when using the string-to-string tuning method.

And you're right, when you're not playing with others, the tuning methods of others "isn't" important - never said it was. As an amateur, I'm only interested in knowing what other 'professional' musicians do. That was the point.

Thanks again.

Click to expand...

I don't know why what I'm about to ask would be true, but maybe it is? Does this different tuning pattern you describe happen because you tune a bass string first? I tune the 1st (treble) string first on any instrument and haven't experienced what you describe. I don't have 2 identical instruments to experiment with, so I'm just wondering. Thanks!