NUD: Might Have a Problem.....

FrankB

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So my wife and I decided we needed a second Martin C1K, and ordered another from Elderly. They were listed as "Available" one day, and not available the next. I called, and they had all 5 in the shop for repair issues. One had just come back, and the salesman looked it over, and had the repair shop double check it. Clean bill of health, so I bought it. It arrived today, and sounds as great as the first. Being OCD, I gave it a quick once over, and saw this:
image.jpg

The other side had a smaller gap:
image.jpg

A quick trip over to my fly tying table (strong light and large magnifying lens) revealed that the gaps were completely filled with glue. Martin uses an attached/applied dovetail, so I'm not worried about it coming apart. What does have me concerned is resale, and OCD about brand new instruments. The repair shop isn't open on weekends, so I'll have to wait until Monday.

Question: What would you do? The gap Martin sounds great, and checks out 100% otherwise. I have a Martin T1K coming from Elderly Tuesday or Wednesday, and hope this one is just a fluke. They didn't say what the other C1Ks were in the shop for, so.....???
 
Tough call. Heel gaps are not uncommon, had gaps as big as yours ( or bigger ) on some highly regarded makers. It didn't bother me.

If it bothers you return it. Hopefully they gave you a discount on the returned uke.
 
I would be very uncomfortable with a neck gap filled with glue. Many glues shrink, expand, and even deteriorate with temperature, humidity, and age. Unless that is an extremely stable and strong glue they are using you could easily be dealing with neck-set issues down the line. Glue on a neck should not be filling gaps...glue on a neck should be stabilizing a wood-to-wood joint so it doesn't slip sideways.

Yes...it presumably has a dovetail...but you can't see the dovetail joint and if they can't even get something that is visible and obvious right then what assurance do you have that the dovetail joint is tight? It is quite possible that it is as loose as the fit you see here and filled with glue...

For me...
...and they had all 5 in the shop for repair issues...
...would be all I would need to hear to decide to put my money elsewhere!
 
Hi Guys,
I didn't return any ukes to them...yet. The first one was flawless. After posting, I recalled that the salesman said the second one was in repair to adjust the string height. When I bought the first C1K, I asked that they pick the best. That could have caused them to spot problems like high action with the others. I've spoken with their repair guy before, and he seems pretty straight forward.

Good point about the fit, John. Conversely, if the neck joint had been undercut to give a super tight fit, the pocket could be filled with glue, and possibly have the same movement later on. Looking at it that way, I'm going to buy a kit from Stew-Mac. :D Actually, the Stew-Mac uke kit uses a crummy little 1/4" dowel to hold the neck to the body. I was thinking about just going for a Kanilea or Kamaka, rather than quantity. Kanilea has a multi-part factory tour on YouTube, and I was surprised to see that they use a biscuit cutter to join the neck to the body. I've used plenty of biscuit in cabinet making, but that was the first time I've seen one used on a stringed instrument.

I'll talk to their repair guy on Monday (Joe), and also see if I can talk to someone at Martin. Maybe Chris will get on the phone and say, "Gap? Have you seen my front teeth?" :stop: :D

The two Martins:
image.jpg
 
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This is an expensive instrument from a supposedly esteemed maker. You shouldn't have to settle.
 
I wonder to what degree is that its made by hands and it can't be perfect? But I don't know anything about the neck construction on an uke and how its put together. One of the sides of my tenor has a darker side then the other but i don't know if that means it was filled or not. My pono has a white dot on the front of the body and its bran new. If you feel it with your finger it has no texture so its possible nature randomly made a perfect white dot or it somehow happened when it was made. I plan to take a furniture paint pen and dot a darker dot to make it blend with the rest, because I notice it.

How would you know if its fill or not?
 
I just got off the phone with Elderly's repair department. The tech said a lot of necks are filled, and he went to find the other C1Ks that had been pulled. He couldn't find them (he looked In the buyer's office as well), and said they were probably rejected and sent back to Martin. Since this one cleared the repair shop twice, I'm guessing it should be good. I'll run over to Guitar Center, and see if any Martin D28s have gaps. :D

Elderly has been a pleasure to deal with. I've bought a few uke from them in the past few weeks, and they spend as much time on the phone as needed. You can call the repair department directly, and not have to rely on a salesman guessing. I should mention (or maybe not), that I was able to use a 10% off coupon on all three Martins, so that's not too bad. The tech told me they'd send out a Fedex call tag if I wanted to return it, and that the warranty would cover any future problems. The neck is straight, the sound is great, the frets are text book perfect, and it's already in my living room. The Koa isn't as great looking as the first, but I wasn't expecting that. I have 5 business days to decide. Now back to playing it. :D
 
So you got a second from elderly that was returned, did you get a discount.....just wondering
 
So you got a second from elderly that was returned, did you get a discount.....just wondering

I don't know that it was a second. The tech said the others must have been returned to Martin as rejects (might be an assumption on his part, but I'll find out Monday). They were all pulled earlier in the week, and this one cleared the repair department twice. First when they were all pulled, and the second time when the salesman said he wanted to make sure it was good. In any case, this particular C1K was put back into stock and the website updated to "Available". It's back to "On Order" again BTW.

I was able to use Elderly's 10% off discount on all three Martins, even though it says they're excluded. They didn't say anything, so I didn't either. ;) They both have great shimmering tone, and make me want to switch the entire arsenal to Koa. The first has Oasis strings, and the second has Martin soprano/concert strings, but I'm still undecided about which strings I like better now. The first one had a bit of a hollow sound on the G and A strings, but the second sounds fine with stock strings. It's not a loud as the uke strung with Oasis, but it's close. The Martin strings give a bit more shimmer when playing "143" above the 9th fret. Both of these ukes are tremolo machines!

I'll call Martin on Monday, and they'll probably tell me to mail it back to Elderly. I could just drive there, since they're only a couple of hours away. :D

Here's a case where having an eye for detail can cause grief. One of my business ventures is commercial fly tying, and they have to look perfect, and every one indistinguishable from the other:
image.jpg
Those flies are #18 and #20 size, and that's very small. Small like 1/4" small, so my eye is always looking for tiny details. A blessing and a curse.........
 
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Okay.... So on the way to dinner, we stopped by Guitar Center. I went to the Martin/Taylor room, and looked at neck joints. Almost every one was tight as ___, but I found a D28 with a funky looking neck joint, and some sort of $1,200 Taylor with a REALLY funky neck joint. It even had factory pencil lines that were never removed. Neither was marked down.
Martin D28:
image.jpg

Taylor of some sort:
image.jpg

There's still a very good chance I'll return this C1K, but I thought I'd take a look at what's coming out of Martin's PA and Mexico factories. There were some neck joints with very slick filler applied, and I wasn't able to capture those on my cell phone. I'm looking for a reason to buy a Kamaka, but also looking to save $600. :D

P.S. I know the Taylor is meant to have an adjustable neck, but some were fit much better than others.
 
P.S. I know the Taylor is meant to have an adjustable neck, but some were fit much better than others.

Yeah...that Taylor is pretty disturbing. I own/have owned a couple of them and have played dozens. They all have bolt-on necks but I've never seen anything like that mess. That doesn't even look like factory work...I bet GC sent that out to a local repair tech who butchered it. I had that happen with a bass cab. It was a floor model but the only one they had in stock so I took it. Got it set up at the church and discovered that it was rattling when I cranked it up just a little. Opened it up and found that two of the drivers had been replaced, and they'd been replaced with 32 ohm drivers (from an 8 X 10 cab) instead of the 16 ohm drivers used in my 4 X 10 cab. I'd blown one of the two remaining 16 ohm drivers because of the unbalanced load (the 16-ohm drivers ended up getting more of the current than the 32 ohm drivers). The local GC then admitted that they'd sent it to a local tech for repair after a customer blew it up in the store. They made good by giving me new drivers to bring the cab up to spec and I've been using it for years now but I was not a happy camper at the time. I told them that the idiot they sent it to put the wrong drivers in and they said they'd make a note not to send him any more work...

John
 
I don't know that it was a second. The tech said the others must have been returned to Martin as rejects (might be an assumption on his part, but I'll find out Monday). They were all pulled earlier in the week, and this one cleared the repair department twice. First when they were all pulled, and the second time when the salesman said he wanted to make sure it was good. In any case, this particular C1K was put back into stock and the website updated to "Available". It's back to "On Order" again BTW.

I was able to use Elderly's 10% off discount on all three Martins, even though it says they're excluded. They didn't say anything, so I didn't either. ;) They both have great shimmering tone, and make me want to switch the entire arsenal to Koa. The first has Oasis strings, and the second has Martin soprano/concert strings, but I'm still undecided about which strings I like better now. The first one had a bit of a hollow sound on the G and A strings, but the second sounds fine with stock strings. It's not a loud as the uke strung with Oasis, but it's close. The Martin strings give a bit more shimmer when playing "143" above the 9th fret. Both of these ukes are tremolo machines!

I'll call Martin on Monday, and they'll probably tell me to mail it back to Elderly. I could just drive there, since they're only a couple of hours away. :D

Here's a case where having an eye for detail can cause grief. One of my business ventures is commercial fly tying, and they have to look perfect, and every one indistinguishable from the other:
View attachment 65343
Those flies are #18 and #20 size, and that's very small. Small like 1/4" small, so my eye is always looking for tiny details. A blessing and a curse.........

Wow nice flies....I would have never thought I would say that....:)
 
I'd return it. If you're the kind of person who's going to think about it a lot, there's no point in keeping it.
 
I'd return it. If you're the kind of person who's going to think about it a lot, there's no point in keeping it.

I've managed to play it for 20 minute stretches without looking at the neck joint. I tried to pass it off on my wife, but she's not going for it. She stills wants a Kamaka, and sees this as the perfect excuse. I tried to convince her that straight grain soundboards are preferable, but she didn't buy any of my stories....LOL!

Resale is my big concern, and I have a reputation for selling guitars within just a few months. My record is 6 days. I had a fantastic classical guitar made by Arturo Huipe. It was a great classical, but worked very well for flamenco. I supposed I was bored on the Friday evening after it arrived, and put it up for sale on a classical guitar forum. I had a few buyers within an hour, and the first sent the money via paypal. It was a long weekend, and I tried to find an excuse not to go through with the deal. I even called the dealer I bought it from, and he thought I was nuts altogether. If someone at Martin says that neck joint is fine, I'm good to go. It's more likely they'll tell me to send it back to Elderly. Is it Monday yet???

Flies: Tie a few thousand, and then you can tie them blindfolded. :D I have customers out West, and they wouldn't even consider anything less than perfectly identical. Since they buy 200-300 at a time, judging that quality is very easy.

John,
That GC has a tech, but he adjusts action using a guitar's truss rod. I actually bought a steel string guitar there, and told the salesman that I would lower the action when I got home. He and the "repair tech" then proceeded to tell me that he could just crank the neck back to lower the action. Crazy.....
 
Wow nice flies...

agreed, I used to tie my own and wasn't too picky, since the fish aren't, I found that the more a fly is used, chewed up and covered with fish spit, the better it worked! ;-D That's a labor intensive job!
 
That's too bad things like that are getting out of the factory. I just checked my C1K and the neck joint is tight. I had an issue with the finish, after just the first few hours of playing the finish bubbled up where I held it with my arm, finally took it over to a Martin service center across town and they got authorization to refinish it under warranty. Haven't had a problem since. And I still love the sound of my C1K! It's not as pretty as yours, but it's nice, sometimes I wish the back was the front.
IMG_1428.jpgIMG_1426.jpg
 
Okay....
I decided to look into various methods of attaching necks to ukuleles. I've chosen Kamaka, Martin, and Kanilea for demo purposes.

Kamaka uses a mortise and tenon, and seems substantial enough:
image.jpg
image.jpg

Kanilea uses what Joe Souza calls a spline. Joe is holding a glued up neck and body, and explains that the fretboard aids in holding the neck to the soundboard/body:
image.jpg
This method might explain why Kanileas have that flat spot where the neck attaches:
image.jpg

Martin uses an "applied dovetail":
image.jpg

Dan,
Your Martin looks fine to me. The newest Martin's strings have been replaced with Oasis, and both C1Ks sound identical. It would seem that figuring has little to do with tone. I actually prefer the straighter grain on the second Martin. Coming from spruce top classical guitars, straight and tight grain is something I always looked for.
 
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John,
That GC has a tech, but he adjusts action using a guitar's truss rod. I actually bought a steel string guitar there, and told the salesman that I would lower the action when I got home. He and the "repair tech" then proceeded to tell me that he could just crank the neck back to lower the action. Crazy.....

Yeah...I hate to say it but sometimes it seems that the only thing worse than a GC contract repair is a GC in-house repair. From what I've seen many of their "techs" have absolutely no meaningful training or experience, much like their sales staff. Hiring someone to sell or work on guitars because they can play is like hiring someone as a surgeon because he has experience in a hospital...cleaning floors.

John
 
Okay. I spoke with some at Martin's repair department, and emailed the pic. They spoke with their manager, and said that neck gap specs on a Martin are .010" or less. A .010" feeler gauge placed alongside the gap covers it, and a .009" gauge does not. This gap would seem to pass their specs, so my only concern now is resale value. The gap is filled completely with glue, so I'd have to scrape it out to use filler. That's not something I'd want to do. Hmmm.....

P.S. The repair person said that their approach to fixing this would be to push glue into the gap, but it's already filled to the max.
 
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