Soprano tuned as "baby baritone" (DGBE)?

I was wondering if anyone out there had tried stringing/tuning a soprano uke like a baritone 1 octave up (DGBE), and if so how you liked it. It would need a special string set, but I'd think it would give a nice bright sound.

I currently have my soprano tuned in re-entrant D (aDF#B) and I like the sound I'm getting out of it--but I'm learning several instruments right now and I'd like one less transposition to deal with. Flipping between 3 tunings (C-concert and tenor and G-baritone and D-soprano) is a little much. If I could get a nice bright sound and deal with one less tuning scheme, that would be great.

aarondminnick said:

I was wondering if anyone out there had tried stringing/tuning a soprano uke like a baritone 1 octave up (DGBE), and if so how you liked it. It would need a special string set, but I'd think it would give a nice bright sound.

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I thought initially you couldn't do it, but after thinking about it, I think you can do this pretty easily. If you grab a nylon .018 or .019 (usually used as the high E from a charango string set) and use that as the high E, you can use the top three strings from a D-tuning set, moving them over one slot on the neck (and tuning the F# string up a halfstep) to make it work.

aarondminnick said:

I was wondering if anyone out there had tried stringing/tuning a soprano uke like a baritone 1 octave up (DGBE), and if so how you liked it. It would need a special string set, but I'd think it would give a nice bright sound.

I currently have my soprano tuned in re-entrant D (aDF#B) and I like the sound I'm getting out of it--but I'm learning several instruments right now and I'd like one less transposition to deal with. Flipping between 3 tunings (C-concert and tenor and G-baritone and D-soprano) is a little much. If I could get a nice bright sound and deal with one less tuning scheme, that would be great.

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I think it may be possible. I think some of the pocket ukes are tuned DGBE. While if you can make it happen and it carries the same tuning, the pitch still will not be in the baritone or low end register and prob will just sound like a way high up capoed guitar. Not sure if its even worth it to be honest. Baritone really isn't that large. The best thing i would do to get close to it is put low G strings on a soprano you will get that linear tuned sound with a low string and the bass part of it, but it will still be a tuning that would go with the smaller size. Just my opinion.

SouthCoast has a set for it. I've tried it on sopranos from a kala to a kamaka - it's more than bright, the high e string gives the uke an almost music box "airy" sound, especially on the higher frets. I ended up abandoning the effort - D tuning gives a plenty bright and sweet sound, and I just ignore the chord names and don't play with others .

I gave one of my relatives a Grizzly uke kit a while back for Christmas. He put the kit together and tuned it as you described, like a baby baritone. Tuned that way, it is the best sounding Grizzly kit I have heard.

The Grizzly kit will not give you an amazing sounding instrument, but for us non-builders it is worth making if for no other reason, it might help you decide if you are going to try a real build or not. I decided that I would rather play ukuleles than build them.

The whole point, which I have digressed from, is that the Grizzly baby baritone sounds better than the Grizzly sopranos. Will other sopranos sound cool if you do this? Try the strings others have suggested above and let us know.

JonThysell said:

SouthCoast has a set for it. I've tried it on sopranos from a kala to a kamaka - it's more than bright, the high e string gives the uke an almost music box "airy" sound, especially on the higher frets.

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Man, I've tried to describe that sound dozens of times to no avail! Music-box-airy is le mot juste, Jon. Thanks for that.

Thanks, everyone. I dropped a note to South Coast and they answered that the tuning I am considering is indeed feasible with their XLL linear string set. I quote:

You've got it. In standard notation that octave is the "one line octave", and the tuning is written d' g' b' e". Rather than write it out, you can also just call it a "one line octave linear G". The XLLs are indeed rated for that tuning.

For kicks, you might also want to take a crack at the Ukulele's original tuning: one line octave open G, written d' g' b' d", or as we call it, Machete tuning. With an extra 1st string, you can try both, or you can just "slack" the 1st string on the linear set.

Personally, I like the slightly smoother sound on the Open tuning, but in the end, there's not a lot of difference. Take a look at this page, that has a video and also lets you download "The Original Ukulele Method":

http://www.southcoastukes.com/open.htm

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aarondminnick said:

Thanks, everyone. I dropped a note to South Coast and they answered that the tuning I am considering is indeed feasible with their XLL linear string set. I quote:

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That SouthCoast quote is exactly what I wanted to read! Now, with these XLLs I can tune one of my sopranos as a machete and play the Vasconcelos material (as recommended by Rob MacKillop) at original pitch. Thanks! This really made my day! The machete material is very beautiful. I highly recommend the book.

Hello again Aaron,

Yes, as you can see, the one-line octave linear G was (almost) the original tuning for the Soprano Ukulele - just one note off on the 1st string. It works wonderfully - as Nunes & Santos tell it, this is the tuning for melody playing, while the "Taropatch" method (the old term for the Ukulele reentrant set-up) was more for strumming and vocal accompaniment.

Luke El U said:

...Now, with these XLLs I can tune one of my sopranos as a machete and play the Vasconcelos material (as recommended by Rob MacKillop) at original pitch. Thanks! This really made my day! The machete material is very beautiful. I highly recommend the book.

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Luke, your post is really interesting as well! To be clear on the sets, the XLL is for the linear form. You can slack the first string for Machete tuning. On the "Open Tuning" page Aaron linked, there's another set called the MCHTE, that has a heavier 1st string that will give better tension in Machete tuning. There's also the option on the Linear page, to add an Open 1st string (to any linear set, actually) so you can try both set-ups at optimal tension.

I really have to thank you for the MacKillop reference. I've been listening to him a lot lately. On the complete other end of the 4-string spectrum, the so-called "Big Baritones", we've been working on a Plectrum Tuning set. It's a perfect range of notes for those instruments, and if you like to be able to play a beautiful classical repertoire, by far the largest body of work was written for the Classic and Plectrum Banjos.

As we started playing with this set-up for our Classical C-body Tenor Guitars, I went looking for music and stumbled on some incredible work by the same Mr. MacKillop. Yet until your post, I hadn't realized he had been playing the Machete as well. Here's one of his instrumentals:



A light sound, to be sure, but not overly so, to my ears at least. On our Open set page there's a video of Vitor Felipe playing a duo with a Rajao, and weak is the last thing that would cross your mind listening to that. It cuts right over the C tuned Rajao, just as it was intended to do.

But now the big question, Luke. What book are you talking about. It's not THE BOOK, by any chance, is it?

southcoastukes said:

Luke, your post is really interesting as well! To be clear on the sets, the XLL is for the linear form. You can slack the first string for Machete tuning. On the "Open Tuning" page Aaron linked, there's another set called the MCHTE, that has a heavier 1st string that will give better tension in Machete tuning. There's also the option on the Linear page, to add an Open 1st string (to any linear set, actually) so you can try both set-ups at optimal tension.

I really have to thank you for the MacKillop reference. I've been listening to him a lot lately. On the complete other end of the 4-string spectrum, the so-called "Big Baritones", we've been working on a Plectrum Tuning set. It's a perfect range of notes for those instruments, and if you like to be able to play a beautiful classical repertoire, by far the largest body of work was written for the Classic and Plectrum Banjos.

As we started playing with this set-up for our Classical C-body Tenor Guitars, I went looking for music and stumbled on some incredible work by the same Mr. MacKillop. Yet until your post, I hadn't realized he had been playing the Machete as well.
But now the big question, Luke. What book are you talking about. It's not THE BOOK, by any chance, is it?

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Well, my understanding from reading MacKillop's website is that he has commissioned a luthier to make an authentic machete for him. But it has been 2 years or more, and he hasn't posted anything else about machete. The Great Firewall of China blocks me from getting YouTube, but I remember watching his video of "Clara Polka" while I was in Thailand/Burma. He plays it on a soprano ukulele probably tuned GCEG. I think it was there that he mentioned the book I ultimately ordered: Manuel Morais‘s recently edited version of Cândido Drumond de Vasconcelos: Colecção de Peças para Machete – Collection of Pieces for Machete (1846), published by Caleidoscópio [ISBN 972-8801-16-5].

Up to now, I've been playing through that material on a tenor tuned GCEG, but I simply approach it as if it were tuned DGBD. Of course, that works for solo playing, but if I wanted to play along with the guitar accompaniment, then the guitar part would have to be transposed as well - then it gets complicated. Better to play this lovely music in the original keys and pitch. Also, occasionally the finger stretches this music requires on a tenor can be difficult.

Now I'm confused about the plectrum banjo repertoire you wrote about, specifically as to the strings you have made for it. Do you mean to say these strings are for a baritone ukulele? That this music can be played on baritone uke with your strings? If so, what repertoire is that?

I love all the lute, guitar, cittern, uke, etc. music Rob MacKillop has posted free on the web. For too long have I put off ordering his CDs. Similarly, I've been interested in South Coast strings but have never actually gotten around to ordering them. I think it's high time for me to act.

Luke El U said:

...the book I ultimately ordered: Manuel Morais‘s recently edited version of Cândido Drumond de Vasconcelos: Colecção de Peças para Machete – Collection of Pieces for Machete (1846), published by Caleidoscópio [ISBN 972-8801-16-5].

...Now I'm confused about the plectrum banjo repertoire you wrote about, specifically as to the strings you have made for it. Do you mean to say these strings are for a baritone ukulele? That this music can be played on baritone uke with your strings? If so, what repertoire is that?

I love all the lute, guitar, cittern, uke, etc. music Rob MacKillop has posted free on the web. For too long have I put off ordering his CDs. Similarly, I've been interested in South Coast strings but have never actually gotten around to ordering them. I think it's high time for me to act.

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First of all - THAT'S THE BOOK! Where did you order it?

Second, on the Plectrum strings, we haven't released them yet, and they're reeeeally an exotic tuning - at least in so far as where you can use them. They're for a class of instruments that hardly exists..four string Parlor Guitars braced for classical strings, or to say it another way - Tenor Guitars built for classical strings instead of steel. We've built them, and Pono is just starting to make them.

With classical strings the linear 5ths tuning - traditional for the steel strung Tenor Guitars - just doesn't work as well. With classical strings you can do the Chicago tuning (like a standard Baritone), but we always felt that body size could stand just a little more depth. Plectrum tuning in standard notation is c g b d', like a Machete tuning dropped an octave - then lower the 4th string one note. Perfect range of notes for that body, and a really responsive set of strings for that scale - deep and smooth.

This was the tuning for the Classic Banjo if you take away the 5th string. A Plectrum Banjo is exactly that - a four string banjo for classic tuning without a 5th string. All through the 19th century - the romantic era - beautiful music was written for these instruments. They were played solo in recital halls like the classical guitar was later. When the Jazz Age dawned, the instruments changed, the tunings changed, and it became a Jazz Band rhythm instrument, and later part of a bluegrass ensemble, like most know it today.

It's a shame the Wall is blocking YouTube for you, because Rob MacKillop is also the best source for recent recordings of this music.

Let me know where you got the Vasconcelos book. Rob has a CD available of Plectrum music. If you can't obtain it from him, let me know, as I have a copy, and maybe I can get it to you.

Here's a video from Rob in that style (we're getting more than a bit off topic, now!)

southcoastukes said:

A light sound, to be sure, but not overly so, to my ears at least. On our Open set page there's a video of Vitor Felipe playing a duo with a Rajao, and weak is the last thing that would cross your mind listening to that. It cuts right over the C tuned Rajao, just as it was intended to do.

Click to expand...

But isn't the instrument in that video strung with steel strings? I liked the one line open g on my sopranos, but as I was primarily trying to play the slack key material that I usually play on baritone, I found that all of the high fret work was too thin for my taste. Eflat tuning on a concert scale was about as high as I was willing to go and still enjoy my slack key material.

southcoastukes said:

Hello again Aaron,

Yes, as you can see, the one-line octave linear G was (almost) the original tuning for the Soprano Ukulele - just one note off on the 1st string. It works wonderfully - as Nunes & Santos tell it, this is the tuning for melody playing, while the "Taropatch" method (the old term for the Ukulele reentrant set-up) was more for strumming and vocal accompaniment.



Luke, your post is really interesting as well! To be clear on the sets, the XLL is for the linear form. You can slack the first string for Machete tuning. On the "Open Tuning" page Aaron linked, there's another set called the MCHTE, that has a heavier 1st string that will give better tension in Machete tuning. There's also the option on the Linear page, to add an Open 1st string (to any linear set, actually) so you can try both set-ups at optimal tension.

I really have to thank you for the MacKillop reference. I've been listening to him a lot lately. On the complete other end of the 4-string spectrum, the so-called "Big Baritones", we've been working on a Plectrum Tuning set. It's a perfect range of notes for those instruments, and if you like to be able to play a beautiful classical repertoire, by far the largest body of work was written for the Classic and Plectrum Banjos.

As we started playing with this set-up for our Classical C-body Tenor Guitars, I went looking for music and stumbled on some incredible work by the same Mr. MacKillop. Yet until your post, I hadn't realized he had been playing the Machete as well. Here's one of his instrumentals:



A light sound, to be sure, but not overly so, to my ears at least. On our Open set page there's a video of Vitor Felipe playing a duo with a Rajao, and weak is the last thing that would cross your mind listening to that. It cuts right over the C tuned Rajao, just as it was intended to do.

But now the big question, Luke. What book are you talking about. It's not THE BOOK, by any chance, is it?

Click to expand...

you can really hear the euro/latin sound in the machete
this guy is really talented, although i don't really care for the sound
it reminds me of mexican style guitar playing. I do kind of like the idea of using linear G tuning on a soprano, taking it back to the original topic although, i love the size of the actual baritone.

JonThysell said:

But isn't the instrument in that video strung with steel strings? I liked the one line open g on my sopranos, but as I was primarily trying to play the slack key material that I usually play on baritone, I found that all of the high fret work was too thin for my taste. Eflat tuning on a concert scale was about as high as I was willing to go and still enjoy my slack key material.

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Jon, I think Luke has it right, Rob is playing a step down. He appears to have a wound 4th, but a classical wound 4th with plain strings for the rest of the set-up; not a steel string set. With the original tuning, a wound 4th isn't necessary, a step down you might want to consider it. I kind of doubt Rob had access to strings that could give the original tuning.

Cavaquinhos generally use the same tuning as a Machete, but with steel strings, and they are really bright.

Although the tuning for a Machete and a Slack Key Ukulele have the same intervals, they're really different styles of playing. On a small Soprano scale, the quicker response favors melody playing. On the longer scales, you get more sustain, especially as you mention, "up the fretboard". It's a key element in the more languid Slack Key style. You're right to stick to the bigger Ukuleles for that sort of sound and feel.

On our "Tips" page, we've got an archived newsletter on Open tuning with recordings of the various styles of playing.
There's Cavaco, Clawhammer Ukulele, Slack Key Ukulele, Slack Key Guitar and Banjo. The only Machete playing is a duo with Rajao, so one of these days we'll have to do some editing and get Rob up there. It's the best solo recording I've heard, even though it might have been even nicer a step up.

southcoastukes said:

First of all - THAT'S THE BOOK! Where did you order it?

Second, on the Plectrum strings, we haven't released them yet, and they're reeeeally an exotic tuning - at least in so far as where you can use them. They're for a class of instruments that hardly exists..four string Parlor Guitars braced for classical strings, or to say it another way - Tenor Guitars built for classical strings instead of steel. We've built them, and Pono is just starting to make them.

With classical strings the linear 5ths tuning - traditional for the steel strung Tenor Guitars - just doesn't work as well. With classical strings you can do the Chicago tuning (like a standard Baritone), but we always felt that body size could stand just a little more depth. Plectrum tuning in standard notation is c g b d', like a Machete tuning dropped an octave - then lower the 4th string one note. Perfect range of notes for that body, and a really responsive set of strings for that scale - deep and smooth.

This was the tuning for the Classic Banjo if you take away the 5th string. A Plectrum Banjo is exactly that - a four string banjo for classic tuning without a 5th string. All through the 19th century - the romantic era - beautiful music was written for these instruments. They were played solo in recital halls like the classical guitar was later. When the Jazz Age dawned, the instruments changed, the tunings changed, and it became a Jazz Band rhythm instrument, and later part of a bluegrass ensemble, like most know it today.

Let me know where you got the Vasconcelos book. Rob has a CD available of Plectrum

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I was afraid you would ask me that. It bugged me all day because I'm out of town and don't have the book with me at the moment. I knew I got it direct from the publisher in Portugal. Searched around on the web, but again the "Caleidoscopia" website is inaccessible from where I am now. Fortunately, I found this on Ukulele Hunt, and I'm pretty sure this is how I ordered it:

"Jay Lee
March 24th, 2011 5:12 am
Thanks for posting these Al.

Of the two ‘parents’ of the ukulele, the Madeiran machete and rajao, there are three important collections of 19th century music manuscripts that relate to the machete:

Cabral, Manuel Joaquim Monteiro. 1846. 1a / Colleccao de differentes / Pecas de Muzica / Compostas / por / Candido Drumond de Vasconcellos / & / Arranjados para Machete e Guitarra, / por / Manoel Joaquim Monteiro Cabral / & / Para uso de Joanna Mathilde Beda de Freitas. Manuscript.

Cabral, Manuel Joaquim Monteiro. c1850. Estudos para Machete / Arranjados / por / Manuel Joaquim Monteiro MJMCabral. Manuscript. 4 leaves (8 pages bound) & 1 leaf (2 pages loose).

Antonio Jose Barbosa. c1870. Principios de Machete, arranjado / Por A. J. Barboza / Fxal Madeira. Manuscript.

On YouTube, Roberto Moritz, Manuel Morais, Quinteto Drumond de Vasconcelos and the late John King are among those that can be found playing pieces from these manuscripts.

The Cabral manuscript ‘collection of pieces for machete and guitar’ was published by Manuel Morais in 2003 (Casal de Cambra)
http://caleidoscopio.pt/en/livros?p...s&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=584&vmcchk=1

The Cabral manuscript ‘studies for machete’ was published by John King in 2008 in a paper in a big book ‘A Madeira e a Música: Estudos’.
http://www.funchal500anos.com/04_detalhe.asp?ano=2008&id=280

The Barbosa manuscript can be downloaded for free from this website:
http://www.recursosonline.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=search_result&Itemid=19

I myself have restrung a cheap soprano as a machete and begun learning pieces from the Cabral Estudos. Unfortunately, I haven’t posted YouTube videos of myself playing any machete pieces yet.

Keep on ukeing Al!"

When I look at the MacKillop site, he has a recording of Parlor Banjo music for which he says, "I play the Luke Mercier Early-Fairbanks banjo with a Dobson tone ring, with gut strings tuned to the old American tuning of eAEG#B, for a warm and mellow sound." I count 5 strings. So, what is the 4-string material you wrote of?

Hello Luke,

Thanks for the links - unfortunately my prime target was the Morais manuscript. The link is dead, and it looks like the company may be gone. The second link is about a 500 page book, largely in Portuguese. If you're a Spanish speaker like me, Portuguese is very frustrating, because you almost know what they're talking about. The third link is interesting. My searches haven't given me the Barbosa manuscript, but some other things have turned up - some Machete exercises, and the Clara Polka that Rob plays in the video.

As to the Plectrum material, I don't want to get way off topic (again), but here's a couple of links:

http://robmackillop.net/banjo/tenor-banjo/

http://classicbanjorm.com/recordings.html

and rather than blather on too much, I'll just say that at the moment, most of the 4-string pieces are adapted from the Classic 5-string. It's easy to do, as in the big majority of that work the 5th string doesn't come into play much. That will change shortly, as Clifford Essex will soon (promised since Christmas) have Emile Grimshaw's Plectrum book republished, updated and expanded to contain (if I remember correctly) about 100 songs!

If you have any questions on all that, drop me a line, but when we release the Plectrum Strings, we'll do a "String Tips" newsletter that will go into it all in more depth.

All just goes to show "what goes around, comes around".

Good luck, Aaron!