PDA

View Full Version : Wrinkles in the waist



Timbuck
05-25-2014, 11:09 PM
Just completed a batch of 8 sopranos 7 turned out pretty good...Just one has let me down...I got wrinkles/creases when bending (My fault I suppose :o)..I thought that I had sanded them out ..But! when the stain and FP was applied they showed up again :mad:...pitty co's this uke is a nice player ..anyway I've put it up for grabs in my shop window;) at a reduced price...this is a pic of the offending bit.
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc143/shiregreenbod/PICT0019_zpsb3dfa0f8.jpg (http://s219.photobucket.com/user/shiregreenbod/media/PICT0019_zpsb3dfa0f8.jpg.html)

billten
05-26-2014, 01:21 AM
shop window


Shop window Tim, where is this shop? i'd love to drop by and browse a while :)

Timbuck
05-26-2014, 01:53 AM
Shop window Tim, where is this shop? i'd love to drop by and browse a while :)
I'm not allowed links to my ebay items :rulez: ;) ..To late anyway it's sold.:cheers:

The Big Kahuna
05-26-2014, 02:26 AM
I'm not allowed links to my ebay items

I've seen plenty of members announcing an item for sale, then supplying nothing more than an ebay link. The 2 MBs that were sold on here, for example (IIRC).

Timbuck
05-26-2014, 02:34 AM
I've seen plenty of members announcing an item for sale, then supplying nothing more than an ebay link. The 2 MBs that were sold on here, for example (IIRC).

I know!...But! I got my knuckles rapped for it last year..and that was in the "Ukulele Marketplace" section :confused:

The Big Kahuna
05-26-2014, 03:26 AM
Try again, see what happens.

Timbuck
05-26-2014, 04:11 AM
I've just checked the rules and this it what it says.

There are three Marketplace rules:


1.Please do not post links or otherwise direct people to your eBay auction. This subsection is intended for member-to-member transactions only, sans middle man. If you would like to announce your eBay auction, please do so in the Links and Videos subsection.

2.Dealers may not post in the Marketplace. If you wish to start a thread about your business, you may do so in the Links and Videos subsection.

3.Certain items are unsuitable for trade through UU. The following are prohibited and may not be mentioned, even in hints or code, in the context of trading on this forum:
> weapons (including, but not only, firearms, knives, bows/crossbows, stun guns and martial arts weapons)
> drugs or medicines
> any item the trading/selling of which is subject to legal regulation or control, including items such as tortoiseshell, wood, and other things covered by the CITES convention.

The Big Kahuna
05-26-2014, 04:29 AM
Post a notice in the Marketplace that you have a uke for sale, along with a link to your post in the Links and Videos section, wherein lies a link to your ebay auction.

And you're a luthier, not a dealer. So that's ok.

ksquine
05-26-2014, 04:30 AM
Eesh...compression fractures never sand out. Mahogany seems much more prone to that than other woods I've worked with.
Those look almost invisible though. I wouldn't discount it too much

David Newton
05-26-2014, 04:52 AM
"Super-Soft II" veneer treatment seems to reduce the instance of wrinkles on troublesome wood. I use it on fracture prone wood, like curly & flamed wood.

Dan Uke
05-26-2014, 05:37 AM
You can post in Links and Videos. That's where the ebay links go.

DazW
06-02-2014, 05:46 AM
Does anyone know if these type of wrinkles in the waist are likely to be a problem structurally or is it purely a cosmetic thing? I have a handmade soprano with these type of wrinkles in both sides of the waist. They are quite noticeable and you can just about feel them when rubbing your finger across them

David Newton
06-02-2014, 05:54 AM
It depends on the extent of the wrinkles. Slight ones are no problem whatsoever.
Larger ones are called "cracks".

DazW
06-02-2014, 06:10 AM
I wouldn't call them cracks at all and on the inside they're barely visible. Here's a couple of pics

67312
67313

RichM
06-02-2014, 06:13 AM
"Super-Soft II" veneer treatment seems to reduce the instance of wrinkles on troublesome wood. I use it on fracture prone wood, like curly & flamed wood.

I have been applying Super Soft II to my waist all morning, but it's still as wrinkly as ever. Although, to be honest, it was already super soft before I started using that stuff.

David Newton
06-02-2014, 08:42 AM
I have been applying Super Soft II to my waist all morning, but it's still as wrinkly as ever. Although, to be honest, it was already super soft before I started using that stuff.

Not your waist, you are supposed to be applying it to "troublesome wood" like my instructions said. Enough said.

Timbuck
06-02-2014, 09:25 AM
I had two more sets of ready bent sides cut from the same piece of mahogany..They also showed slight signs of wrinkles :(...So I decided not to use them and I destroyed them before they could give me any more pain.;)

bluesuke
06-02-2014, 09:32 AM
I have had the same problem on a few sets. The only wood I have had this problem with is Mahogany

DazW
06-02-2014, 09:34 AM
I had two more sets of ready bent sides cut from the same piece of mahogany..They also showed slight signs of wrinkles :(...So I decided not to use them and I destroyed them before they could give me any more pain.;)

Would you say based on my pics above that I should query it?

Allen
06-02-2014, 10:24 AM
They are compression wrinkles in the wood Daz. The area where you see that line has collapsed under the stress of the bending operation. If there aren't crack on the inside, then don't worry about it. They are not structural. Just cosmetic.

It happens for a few reasons. The bend is more than the wood can take. Bending too fast. Not enough steam / heat.

Some woods are far more prone to it than others. Mahogany can be a real problem with this.

DazW
06-02-2014, 10:38 AM
They are compression wrinkles in the wood Daz. The area where you see that line has collapsed under the stress of the bending operation. If there aren't crack on the inside, then don't worry about it. They are not structural. Just cosmetic.

It happens for a few reasons. The bend is more than the wood can take. Bending too fast. Not enough steam / heat.

Some woods are far more prone to it than others. Mahogany can be a real problem with this.

Thanks for your reply Allen. It's very nicely finished and the creases are the only slight flaw. No cracks inside and the creased area feels solid enough so hopefully it is just cosmetic.

Wildestcat
06-03-2014, 08:09 AM
Hi. I have just experienced this problem for the first (and second) time, with American Black Walnut and Tasmanian Blackwood. No problems (well, not that I have noticed) with previous ukes built from Koa, Mahogany, English Cherry and Tasmanian Blackood, but coincident with the appearance of this thread, I get it twice over!

The ukes are for my grandchildren, so I don't have the issue of paying customers to worry about, but obviously I want to produce good reliable instruments that will stand the test of time ... and no doubt some rough handling along the way.

So - my question is how far is it wise to go with attempts to sand out these defects?

Both sets of sides were thinned to 1.85 mm (0.073") prior to bending, and the waist bends are shown in the photos after light sanding and wetting with white spirit to accentuate the defects. The cracks definitely do not extend through to the inside.

Should I be considering some form of reinforcement on the inside of the waist?

DazW
06-03-2014, 08:43 AM
Hi. I have just experienced this problem for the first (and second) time, with American Black Walnut and Tasmanian Blackwood. No problems (well, not that I have noticed) with previous ukes built from Koa, Mahogany, English Cherry and Tasmanian Blackood, but coincident with the appearance of this thread, I get it twice over!

The ukes are for my grandchildren, so I don't have the issue of paying customers to worry about, but obviously I want to produce good reliable instruments that will stand the test of time ... and no doubt some rough handling along the way.

So - my question is how far is it wise to go with attempts to sand out these defects?

Both sets of sides were thinned to 1.85 mm (0.070") prior to bending, and the waist bends are shown in the photos after light sanding and wetting with white spirit to accentuate the defects. The cracks definitely do not extend through to the inside.

Should I be considering some form of reinforcement on the inside of the waist?

Hi, I contacted the builder of my uke today and he insists the creases are nothing to worry about and have no impact on the structure of the uke. These things just sometimes happen with certain wood types during the bending process. He said these wrinkles usually go about halfway through the wood so it's not a good idea to sand them too much. I think mine show up so much because it is a very light, natural finish.
Sorry I can't help further, I'm still a little undecided about my uke to be honest, I appreciate everyone has different opinions but it seems these wrinkles are a big deal to some people but not important to others

Matt Clara
06-03-2014, 03:14 PM
I've had this problem with Peruvian Walnut and African Ribbon Mahogany. Very frustrating, and I now steer away from those woods, but I've since then been bending a little more slowly with an eye to heating the wood all the way through and haven't had a problem since.

BlackBearUkes
06-03-2014, 06:32 PM
Hi, I contacted the builder of my uke today and he insists the creases are nothing to worry about and have no impact on the structure of the uke. These things just sometimes happen with certain wood types during the bending process. He said these wrinkles usually go about halfway through the wood so it's not a good idea to sand them too much. I think mine show up so much because it is a very light, natural finish.
Sorry I can't help further, I'm still a little undecided about my uke to be honest, I appreciate everyone has different opinions but it seems these wrinkles are a big deal to some people but not important to others

If you can see the wrinkle, the wood is fractured. This can be slight sometimes and can be sanded out, but when ever this happens to me now, I break the piece and start over. I have seen many vintage ukes with this problem and it only gets worse with age, no matter how well you cover it up or try to disguise it, it will show up later on.

DazW
06-03-2014, 10:34 PM
Hi, when you say 'it gets worse with age' and 'it will show up later on' are you referring to the wrinkles becoming more visible, or possibly turning into cracks or something? The fact I can see them doesn't bother me but if that area of the wood is more fragile and likely to break then it's a problem

BlackBearUkes
06-04-2014, 03:35 AM
Hi, when you say 'it gets worse with age' and 'it will show up later on' are you referring to the wrinkles becoming more visible, or possibly turning into cracks or something? The fact I can see them doesn't bother me but if that area of the wood is more fragile and likely to break then it's a problem

Yes, the wood is more fragile and the stress lines will show up. You have to remember that we are talking about wood that is very thin to begin with, maybe 1/16" to 3/32" thick. If you sand the stress lines out of wood that thin, its folly to think they don't go all the way through the wood.Others may not agree, but I wouldn't use cracked wood.

Timbuck
06-04-2014, 03:55 AM
Duane...If I get any more in the future I'll just snap and bin e'm ...not worth the hastle...I thought I'd sanded them out but! the finish showed them up again :agree: The two I sold as seconds were good playing ukes and the recipients were happy with them...But they niggled me a bit :(

DazW
06-04-2014, 04:09 AM
Yes, the wood is more fragile and the stress lines will show up. You have to remember that we are talking about wood that is very thin to begin with, maybe 1/16" to 3/32" thick. If you sand the stress lines out of wood that thin, its folly to think they don't go all the way through the wood.Others may not agree, but I wouldn't use cracked wood.

I have some people on here telling me these wrinkles are fine and nothing to worry about and some telling me the wood shouldn't have been used and binned. No idea where I stand with it now, as Timbuck says it is really niggling me and I think it always will. Pics of my uke are earlier in this thread for anyone interested.
Maybe I'm reading too much into it, after reading Timbucks thread on 'builders depression' I actually felt bad about querying my issue at all

Sven
06-04-2014, 06:23 AM
I'd say they're nothing to worry about. What's gonna happen to a ukulele that compromises its structural integrity, to use a catch phrase from Star Trek. Spans are small, sides are reinforced both by lining and geometry and locked into place by the top and back. If the builder of your uke is who I think it was you got it fast and cheap enough. Relax, open a beer and play it. They're compression wrinkles, not cracks. I have them on the only two factory made instruments I still own.

Of course I respect the knowledge of Duane and others with similar experience - they surely surpass me in all aspects. But if it sounds good don't fret and don't give your builder a depression or a bad rep.

I've had similar wrinkles but they did not go deeper than a ordinary sanding session, which was going to happen anyway. Some woods are more prone to this than others and if you are selling for a high price you should bin it if it doesn't sand out. But I'd do that to protect me from anxious buyers, not because it's fatal.

This post is meant to make you feel better about your uke, not meant to defend me or any other builder. I hope no one takes it the wrong way.

DazW
06-04-2014, 06:43 AM
I'd say they're nothing to worry about. What's gonna happen to a ukulele that compromises its structural integrity, to use a catch phrase from Star Trek. Spans are small, sides are reinforced both by lining and geometry and locked into place by the top and back. If the builder of your uke is who I think it was you got it fast and cheap enough. Relax, open a beer and play it. They're compression wrinkles, not cracks. I have them on the only two factory made instruments I still own.

Of course I respect the knowledge of Duane and others with similar experience - they surely surpass me in all aspects. But if it sounds good don't fret and don't give your builder a depression or a bad rep.

I've had similar wrinkles but they did not go deeper than a ordinary sanding session, which was going to happen anyway. Some woods are more prone to this than others and if you are selling for a high price you should bin it if it doesn't sand out. But I'd do that to protect me from anxious buyers, not because it's fatal.

This post is meant to make you feel better about your uke, not meant to defend me or any other builder. I hope no one takes it the wrong way.

Thanks for that Sven. I have tried my best to be subtle in my posts and have no intention of giving anyone a bad rep. I don't think the price I paid is really relevant, had it been 100 or 1000 I would still query something on the instrument that didn't seem quite right, just as I would if it was a factory built uke from a retailer.
If some people are suggesting the wrinkles are trouble, but others suggesting they are of no significance at all, it is difficult to make a judgement on who to listen to.
I received a pm from someone who was very surprised to hear I wasn't told about the wrinkles prior, also it was a thread posted by another builder that really made me want to query the issue, as I saw he had reduced one significantly and sold it as a second because of a few slight wrinkles on one side.
Apologies for dragging the thread on anyway and thanks to those who replied.
To avoid any further potential rep damage I won't add to the thread again, I have every respect for the builders and the difficult job they do trying to please pain in the ass buyers like myself ;)
Cheers.

Dan Uke
06-04-2014, 12:08 PM
Ken, thanks for pointing something out that most non-builders will not notice. I have never looked at the waist and really don't pay attention to the sides. I'm sure this thread will make potential buyers more confident that the builder is more stringent than most buyers.

David Newton
06-04-2014, 04:30 PM
This thread goes along with the earlier thread "Builder's Depression" about the expectation of buyers.
One builder doesn't think wrinkles are a big deal, another cringes at the thought . One builder puts on a rudimentary finish, another spends multiple hours on a flawless gloss finish.
A buyer cannot say to one builder "your instruments have to meet the standard of that other builder". One builder cannot tell another builder what standard he has to build to. Each builder builds to the standard he sets for himself.
It is up to the buyer to "beware".

BlackBearUkes
06-04-2014, 06:22 PM
It is hard for me to understand why any luthier would build wilth "wrinkles in the waist" (a flaw IMO) and be OK with that as a standard.

Rob-C
06-05-2014, 01:29 PM
Has this thread crossed the line into the realms of one builder openly dissing another's work, based on nothing more than opinions they read on the internet?

BlackBearUkes
06-05-2014, 02:18 PM
Has this thread crossed the line into the realms of one builder openly dissing another's work, based on nothing more than opinions they read on the internet?

Well, my opinions are based on 20+ as a full time luthier and experience. Wood that has cracked, fatiqued, folded, wrinkled or any other way you want to spin it, is bad news if that crack is there from the beginning. Nobody is dissing any body elses work, just pointing out the obvious when it comes to wood.

maryagn3s
06-05-2014, 03:08 PM
I have played uke for almost 40 years and realise now I have actually played ukes by every builder posting here.

Seriously, none of you are perfect and THAT is the point.

This thread seems to be debating something that I've seen in quality K-brand ukes for sale... Something that does not affect integrity or quality and that, frankly, is based in opinion (not fact).

I used to think people were fair and kind.

This thread is disappointing (except for Sven's contribution. His final line bears repeating)

"This post is meant to make you feel better about your uke, not meant to defend me or any other builder. I hope no one takes it the wrong way."

-m

Rob-C
06-05-2014, 07:37 PM
Wood that has cracked...

The wood is not cracked and you are talking about a uke you have never seen.