Music Theory

UkeyDave · Jun 5, 2014

Can anyone fill in the question marks for me.
The tune is Blue Moon

I vi ii V7 (x8)
ii7 iii7 I (x2)
IV ? ? iii V7
I vi ii V7 (x4)

In the key of C the chords are Bb and Eb but how would I notate this using the corresponding roman numerals?
I think I need help from an expert in music theory please.
Regards
Dave

Mattyukaholic · Jun 5, 2014

Hi Dave,

It sounds to me that the version you're doing is in the key of C minor. In a minor scale the 3rd and 7th are flatted. So your Eb is the iii (flatted E) and the Bb is the vii.

So key of C major:

C D E F G A B C

See you've flatted the 3rd and 7th notes.

I don't know the song but remember that many songs have key changes. It is quite possible that the song changes to a minor key just for that part.

Hope this helps,

Matt

cdkrugjr · Jun 5, 2014

In the version I have available to me, it's actually in Eb for those two bars. I make it out as:
Ab(M7) Bbx7 Eb. Ab, Bb, and Eb in the melody make that pretty clear. The chords from last cadence are in the version I have are:

C (New key: Eb) Ab - Bb - Eb - (new key C) D G C and we're back in to Rogers/Hart's I-vi-ii-V-I progression for the head.

So in numbers:

(C) IM7 (Eb) IV(M7?) Vx7 (C) IIx7 ("secondary dominant" or "V of V" are common names for this) V I etc

You normally only declare a new key when you have a IV-V-I or a ii-V-I (or their corresponding minor versions) which is why the D7-G7 doesn't merit a "Now we're in G" declaration.

UkeyDave · Jun 5, 2014

OK I'm out of my depth here I think. Perhaps it isn't in the key of C after all.
Let me try asking a different question because I may be confusing those of you who know their music theory as I certainly don't and may be talking rubbish.
I have presumed that because the first chord in the song is C that it must be in the key of C. (I have that bit wrong I think).
So if I write the chords then perhaps someone would be kind enough to write it in roman numerals for me or at least tell me what key the tune is in. Apologies for my mistake.
The chords to the song are as follows (in this particular key, whatever that key may be)
C Am Dm G7 (X8)
Dm7 Em7 C (X2)
F Bb Eb Em G7
C Am Dm G7 (X4)
Hopefully this will make more sense to you music theory experts out there.
Thanks.

Ukejenny · Jun 5, 2014

I'm thinking you are in the key of C. And here's a good little visual tutorial on Roman numerals.

http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/44

Mattyukaholic · Jun 5, 2014

UkeyDave said:
OK I'm out of my depth here I think. Perhaps it isn't in the key of C after all.
Let me try asking a different question because I may be confusing those of you who know their music theory as I certainly don't and may be talking rubbish.
I have presumed that because the first chord in the song is C that it must be in the key of C. (I have that bit wrong I think).
So if I write the chords then perhaps someone would be kind enough to write it in roman numerals for me or at least tell me what key the tune is in. Apologies for my mistake.
The chords to the song are as follows (in this particular key, whatever that key may be)
C Am Dm G7 (X8)
Dm7 Em7 C (X2)
F Bb Eb Em G7
C Am Dm G7 (X4)
Hopefully this will make more sense to you music theory experts out there.
Thanks.

Hi Dave,

The song as a whole is definitely in the key of C.

The trouble with writing in Roman numerals only without the specific chords is it gets complicated. To me that line with the flats if taken alone is definitely in C minor. That makes the Eb an III and the Bb a VII. But you'd need to notate the change.

I don't see how you could write them as Roman numerals in the C major scale as they are not in C major (therefore you can't really give them a numeral.)

That's my tuppence worth. It's also why I think writing in chord family numerals on anything other than simple progressions in one key is more complicated than it's worth.

Ukejenny · Jun 5, 2014

UkeyDave said:
Can anyone fill in the question marks for me.
The tune is Blue Moon

I vi ii V7 (x8)
ii7 iii7 I (x2)
IV ? ? iii V7
I vi ii V7 (x4)

In the key of C the chords are Bb and Eb but how would I notate this using the corresponding roman numerals?
I think I need help from an expert in music theory please.
Regards
Dave

Would the Eb chord be represented by a III? And the Bb would also be upper case, I think, so a VII? If I remember correctly, the rules for upper case and lower case change a bit when you are looking at popular music - jazz. I may be totally wrong. Totally.

SailQwest · Jun 5, 2014

In the OP's song:
Eb = IIIb
Bb = VIIb

I rarely use Roman numerals for chord notation. I much prefer Nashville numbers. (I don't know how to superscript on here, so I used parentheses instead for the 7s.)

1 6m 2m 5(7) (x8)
2m7 3m7 1 (x2)
4 b7 b3 3m 5(7)
1 6m 2m 5(7) (x4)

Kimosabe · Jun 5, 2014

I believe this is a case of having modulated to another key using the cycle of fifths. Songs don't always stay in the same key. Some simler songs use chord movemnts that cycle thru sections of the cycle of fifths. Simpler songs usually return to the original key. The numeric system refers to one key.

cdkrugjr · Jun 5, 2014

The nice thing about Standards is there's so many to choose from. . . I usually use all capital Roman numerals, with only modified chords indicated.

The chart he's working from is in C, that's evident from the start and end chords, which helpfully match in the original chart. Not all tunes are so nice. Giant Steps anyone?

In John Mehegan's Jazz Improvisation he identifies a temporary key change in Blue Moon to Eb for those bars, which matches what I read in the online version, though JM scores it in E and throws in a couple tritone substitutions . . .

Ukejenny · Jun 6, 2014

SailQwest said:
In the OP's song:
Eb = IIIb
Bb = VIIb

I rarely use Roman numerals for chord notation. I much prefer Nashville numbers. (I don't know how to superscript on here, so I used parentheses instead for the 7s.)

1 6m 2m 5(7) (x8)
2m7 3m7 1 (x2)
4 b7 b3 3m 5(7)
1 6m 2m 5(7) (x4)

This is an incredibly cool concept that I've never fully explored.

SailQwest · Jun 6, 2014

Ukejenny said:
This is an incredibly cool concept that I've never fully explored.

It makes changing between different keys, tunings, and/or instruments super easy.

Ukejenny · Jun 6, 2014

SailQwest said:
It makes changing between different keys, tunings, and/or instruments super easy.

That is about my extent of knowledge of Nashville numbers. If I were a real set player, I might have dived in. As it is, my improv skills are infantile.

Ukuleleblues · Jun 6, 2014

SailQwest said:
In the OP's song:
Eb = IIIb
Bb = VIIb

I rarely use Roman numerals for chord notation. I much prefer Nashville numbers. (I don't know how to superscript on here, so I used parentheses instead for the 7s.)

1 6m 2m 5(7) (x8)
2m7 3m7 1 (x2)
4 b7 b3 3m 5(7)
1 6m 2m 5(7) (x4)

Nashville numbers make it easy, even outside of Nashville. I had a friend introduce the concept.

Music Theory

UkeyDave

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