copyright and selling arrangements

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janeray1940

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Aloha UU - I realize that even if you *are* a lawyer, you are not *my* lawyer, and any responses made should not be taken as legal advice :)

Now that we've got that settled... I'm trying to understand something about copyright. Several fairly well-known ukulele teachers (and UU members) have websites in which they sell arrangements of songs that are not in public domain - let's take, for example, Beatles songs, the rights to which are clearly owned by a publisher.

Sometimes the sellers say "contact me for the arrangement" and then respond to the inquiry with the fee, but they do not publicize this on their site.

Sometimes the sellers have a Paypal "Donate" button.

Sometimes the sellers state a flat fee is stated for x-many songs.

My question is - how does one go about doing this legally? Those offering the arrangements are theoretically profiting (however small the profits may be) from selling their own arrangements of copyrighted work, aren't they?

I'm familiar with the Fair Use doctrine (hey, library school wasn't COMPLETELY useless!) and based on this, my guess is that by offering these as "tutorials" one is able to get around the tricky business of actually contacting the copyright holder... but I'm just guessing.

Can anybody clue me in? And I should state that, should this practice not be entirely legal, I am NOT trying to out anybody here (hence the not pointing to specific websites or naming names). Just doing some fact-finding for the project that I mentioned some months ago here.

Thanks, as always.
 
EDIT: Incorrect information re: this kind of licensing.
 
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Interested in hearing some informed responses, but it sounds like it would be illegal to me but just not well enforced. Kinda like covers at open mic, not usually gigged by the powers to be, but it does happen..just had it happen here. Cover bands and covers at open mics are commonplace at our local bars, but if a venue starts to get a little too much attention, authorities come in, check it out, fine and put a stop to it. A "country music" nite that went on for a while, nearby, got popular and then they had to put the kabosh on covers due to legal action...now we have to hear some really dreadful original music.
 
I don't know much about this scary world, but I can get you started.

To legally sell an arrangement one would buy the license for a song from the publisher.

Of course, "little people" like us aren't going to call up Sony and say, "Yo, Sony, can I license In My Life?" Enter something like The Harry Fox Agency: http://www.harryfox.com/public/. They serve as the middleman between you and them. I think you can make an account and then search songs, put them in your cart and see how much they would be in your situation. It's pretty interesting to poke around on that site.

When my cohort at the Institute of Hawaiian Music put together our CD, a couple of the tunes were under copyright by somebody else. Our director had to track down the publishers (not all were represented by HFA) and buy licenses for each (how much depends on how many units the songs in/on, whatfor, etc...). In some cases it was just a "Yeah, go for it" from the composer. But it's doubtful if Sony would be so kind.

Thanks Brad. I was under the impression that HFA licensed songs for performance or recording, but not for publishing. For that, as you noted, one would contact the publishers. In the case of a smaller publisher one might get the go-ahead, but from what I've been told, a publisher on the scale of, say, Sony, would be more likely to say no, or to not respond in the first place - or so I've been told. But I'll dig around on the HFA site a bit more.
 
Brad, you're talking about "mechanical licenses" for reproducing audio recordings. This is a reasonably straightforward process especially if HFA can be used. Publishing a written arrangement is a different kind of license that I unfortunately don't know anything about.
 
Interested in hearing some informed responses, but it sounds like it would be illegal to me but just not well enforced. Kinda like covers at open mic, not usually gigged by the powers to be, but it does happen..just had it happen here. Cover bands and covers at open mics are commonplace at our local bars, but if a venue starts to get a little too much attention, authorities come in, check it out, fine and put a stop to it. A "country music" nite that went on for a while, nearby, got popular and then they had to put the kabosh on covers due to legal action...now we have to hear some really dreadful original music.

That's the impression I've gotten too - or, to paraphrase, "it's only illegal if you get caught" :) Which would most certainly not be worth the hassle, I would think, because really - how much money is one going to make selling ukulele tab? Probably not enough to justify a legal hassle, at any rate.
 
Please, no faux legal advice here! When I see topics like this with a bunch of folks posting advice that is well intentioned, but wrong or not relevant, I think of forums seeking medical advice where quackery and legit comments compete for attention.

Just start with this book: http://www.amazon.com/THIS-BUSINESS-OF-MUSIC-EDITION/dp/0823077233

And don't forget, every now and then a music publisher or record company chooses to make an example out of someone for file sharing, illegal music publishing that goes beyond the limits of "fair use", etc. Know the law before you decide to break it! Just asking the questions here makes it apparent that you're unsure but think this may not be OK. And it's one thing to print out some lead sheets with chords for a uke club meeting; it's a whole other thing to sell arrangements without the songwriters' publishers' consent. They can and may come down heavy on that.

And I'm just the messenger here. Learn the law. Respect the Intellectual Property rights of artists, composers, and songwriters. Their songs do not belong to you if still under copyright.
 
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Please, no faux legal advice here! When I see topics like this with a bunch of folks posting advice that is well intentioned, but wrong or not relevant, I think of forums seeking medical advice where quackery and legit comments compete for attention.

Just start with this book: http://www.amazon.com/THIS-BUSINESS-OF-MUSIC-EDITION/dp/0823077233

And don't forget, every now and then a music publisher or record company chooses to make an example out of someone for file sharing, illegal music publishing that goes beyond the limits of "fair use", etc. Know the law before you decide to break it! Just asking the questions here makes it apparent that you're unsure but think this may not be OK. And it's one thing to print out some lead sheets with chords for a uke club meeting; it's a whole other thing to sell arrangements without the songwriters' publishers' consent. The can and may come down heavy on that.

And I'm just the messenger here. Learn the law. Respect the Intellectual Property rights of artists, composers, and songwriters. Their songs do not belong to you if still under copyright.

Thanks Rick - based on my understanding of the law I *know* that this isn't OK... yet people are doing it very openly, and that made me question what (little) I know. I've got a long history of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, so - definitely not taking any chances :)
 
Brad, you're talking about "mechanical licenses" for reproducing audio recordings. This is a reasonably straightforward process especially if HFA can be used. Publishing a written arrangement is a different kind of license that I unfortunately don't know anything about.

Oops. Well, disregard then.
 
Another point to consider is that what may be "legal", or otherwise, in one country may well be different in another country. The safest route for anything that isn't obviously in the public domain, by virtue of age, (and even this can vary between jurisdictions), is to ask permission from whosoever and get it in writing. At least one then has a degree of "due diligence" to show if there are any claims.

With the international opportunities available on the internet, it may be possible to break the law in your country by buying something that is legally available in another. Just remember, ignorance of the law is no defence in many jurisdictions.
 
......

Yes to SMM's idea. Or forum member Ukuleke Mike, (ukuleleteacher2009?) who is not under Hal Leonard and is doing, essentially, what you are proposing, JR40. He seems nice and may have the answer to keeping you out of the local penitentiary. Lol

I though HFA licensed any use of a song, not just recording but also instruction. You mention poking around on the website, please do let us know if this is the case.

The book Rick linked looks mighty, too. Perhaps prder from your library.
 
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Give Jim Beloff a call or email, and ask him how he does it. His publisher is Hal Leonard, so perhaps the publisher takes care of the royalties side of it.

From what I understand that's exactly the case: if you're with a big publisher such as Hal Leonard, they will make the arrangements with Sony or whomever, and Sony or whomever will respond. If you're a "little guy" doing self-publishing, the "big guy" will either say no, or not even respond.
 
Yes to SMM's idea. Or forum member Ukuleke Mike, (ukuleleteacher2009?) who is not under Hal Leonard and is doing, essentially, what you are proposing, JR40. He seems nice and may have the answer to keeping you out of the local penitentiary. Lol

I though HFA licensed any use of a song, not just recording but also instruction. You mention poking around on the website, please do let us know if this is the case.

The book Rick linked looks mighty, too. Perhaps prder from your library.

Ha ha, already waitlisted for the book at the library :)

I've contacted a few people off list (Ukulele Mike among them but so far no response) and the responses I've gotten have confirmed what I suspected above - that the hope is by having a video tutorial and presenting the material as educational, it will fall under fair use as educational material. Not a chance I'd be willing to take!
 
Who enforces this? Who's jurisdiction does if fall under? Where is it prosecuted and who prosecutes it? I'm assuming it is federal, but I guess I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure it isn't the city cop though. How many people actually end up in jail for selling ukulele tabs?
 
How many people actually end up in jail for selling ukulele tabs?

No idea, but I certainly wouldn't want to be the one going to court (or jail!) over this.

Similar but different real-life experience: many years ago when I was a minimum-wage worker, I made a few hundred dollar mistake on my taxes. Back then I moved a lot, was too poor to have a telephone, and was rather difficult to track down. Years passed. I started a new job and within days of my employer filing the new-hire paperwork, I had a bill from the IRS for the original few hundred dollars, plus several years' interest, and a "pay now or go to jail" option.

My takeaway: the big guys are far more likely to come after the little guys than they are to go after another big guy. Just like the playground bully in elementary school! So, why take chances.
 
Please understand that "the big guys", primarily ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC represent composers and songwriters, many of whom are "little guys" and all of whom have suffered mightily due to illegal file sharing. Yes, many "little guys" are getting ripped off royally these days. Just talk to any singer-songwriter about what has happened to their living in the past twenty five years. It's not a pretty picture. The only protection that the little guys have at all is to sign up with one of the three "big guys" mentioned above. It's the equivalent of having collective bargaining rights.

Fair use is pretty easy to understand, and it does NOT include making money on other people's original works without compensating them. You can bet your bippy that every book put out by Hal Leonard or Alfred or whomever at that level provides some sort of income stream for the original composer or writer as well as arranger. If you're making money, the authors should make money. You can think of "fair use" pretty much the same way you might think of a 501c3 non-profit, and it may actually be more restrictive than that. The United Way is a non-profit; the CEO makes a fortune. Don't try that at home with uke arrangements without paying the piper, so to speak.

I realize it's not hip to stand up for Intellectual Property rights for musicians, composers, and songwriters, but here I am. Many of my friends have had their incomes threatened by what's come down in the past decade or so.
 
Preaching to the choir here, Rick. I have bought mechanical licenses a couple of times, and for my purposes, they were cheap, and I felt better about doing it. Got on a couple of nice mailing lists by the artists who tracked such things. As a writer, I've seen my stuff pirated on torrent sites for years, so I know how that feels. Copyright is designed to protect the creator of a work, and in these times, that's not a lot of protection. We saw what file sharing did for movies and music, and it's happening to books, too.

Back in the day, musicians cut an album, then went on tour to support it and generate sales; now, they cut an album to generate interest for live appearances, since they aren't making squat for the album. Folks who might sell a million records twenty years ago are lucky to sell a hundred thousand now, and that's the heavyweights. The midlist musicians have a much harder go of it.

I figure if I'm making money on somebody's work, they ought to get a piece of it ...
 
Well... on second thoughts no.. not again. This debate never ends well. All I'll say is music IS people copying off each other. All the way back.
 
Please understand that "the big guys", primarily ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC represent composers and songwriters, many of whom are "little guys" and all of whom have suffered mightily due to illegal file sharing. Yes, many "little guys" are getting ripped off royally these days. Just talk to any singer-songwriter about what has happened to their living in the past twenty five years. It's not a pretty picture. The only protection that the little guys have at all is to sign up with one of the three "big guys" mentioned above. It's the equivalent of having collective bargaining rights.

Fair use is pretty easy to understand, and it does NOT include making money on other people's original works without compensating them. You can bet your bippy that every book put out by Hal Leonard or Alfred or whomever at that level provides some sort of income stream for the original composer or writer as well as arranger. If you're making money, the authors should make money. You can think of "fair use" pretty much the same way you might think of a 501c3 non-profit, and it may actually be more restrictive than that. The United Way is a non-profit; the CEO makes a fortune. Don't try that at home with uke arrangements without paying the piper, so to speak.

I realize it's not hip to stand up for Intellectual Property rights for musicians, composers, and songwriters, but here I am. Many of my friends have had their incomes threatened by what's come down in the past decade or so.

Preaching to the choir here, Rick. I have bought mechanical licenses a couple of times, and for my purposes, they were cheap, and I felt better about doing it. Got on a couple of nice mailing lists by the artists who tracked such things. As a writer, I've seen my stuff pirated on torrent sites for years, so I know how that feels. Copyright is designed to protect the creator of a work, and in these times, that's not a lot of protection. We saw what file sharing did for movies and music, and it's happening to books, too.

Back in the day, musicians cut an album, then went on tour to support it and generate sales; now, they cut an album to generate interest for live appearances, since they aren't making squat for the album. Folks who might sell a million records twenty years ago are lucky to sell a hundred thousand now, and that's the heavyweights. The midlist musicians have a much harder go of it.

I figure if I'm making money on somebody's work, they ought to get a piece of it ...

Well... on second thoughts no.. not again. This debate never ends well. All I'll say is music IS people copying off each other. All the way back.


Just to clarify - I was using the big guy/little guy scenario NOT to express the view that it's okay to take from the big guy - in my opinion, it's not. My example was purely to illustrate that in my experience, it doesn't matter how small-time you are, the US federal government will come after you if they can.

We *want* to pay for the publishing rights, but based on the info I've obtained so far, getting Sony et al to give us the time of day is just not realistically going to happen. My reason for posting here was to find out if, in the experience of others, this has proven true.

So at this point, the options for someone who wants to do right pretty much look like this: get with a publishing company such as Hal Leonard, or stick with public domain songs and/or originals.

All of that to say - no debate here! The law seems pretty clear to all of us - but the fact that selling uke arrangements of non-PD songs seems to be pretty widespread is what had me a little confused. Thanks, all, for clearing that one up.
 
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