The Rebel Double Creme?

[merlin666]

Koaloha makes great concert scale instruments and the Opios I played were almost as nice as the real thing though more variable and less consistent from instrument to instrument. I haven't tried a concert rebel but got close to buying a mango tenor as it was quite nice for the price. If the Opio and Creme were similar price I would probably prefer the Creme as it has more premium appeal and I don't care for "acacia". Much better choice would be a used real KoAloha with friction tuner headstock that sometimes can be found in that price range.

 

[rainbow21]

Here is a recent poll with 100+ responses. Tenors are played by about 50% and concerts by 35%. You might read through to get people's thoughts.

[POLL] What size ukulele do you prefer?

What size ukuleles do you prefer? Do you like small ones? Big ones? Are the middle ones just right? Are you loyal to just one or do you like them all?

forum.ukuleleunderground.com

You have both a concert and tenor scale that you play. Which do YOU prefer to add to your collection. Don't choose what a majority recommends to you. If you get a Rebel, would you want a tenor one or a concert one?

And if you are not willing to pay $90 more for a gloss finish, then don't worry what they call it. It has a satin-type, matte-type of finish and the terms are somewhat loosely used differently by different makers. Both will be fine.

 

[magicspeller]

merlin666, why don't you care for acacia (and why do you put it in quotes?)? My understanding is that koa is very closely related to acacia (if not a variety of acacia), and that they sound similar. Do you like koa?

 

[magicspeller]

Here is a recent poll with 100+ responses. Tenors are played by about 50% and concerts by 35%. You might read through to get people's thoughts.

[POLL] What size ukulele do you prefer?

What size ukuleles do you prefer? Do you like small ones? Big ones? Are the middle ones just right? Are you loyal to just one or do you like them all?

forum.ukuleleunderground.com

You have both a concert and tenor scale that you play. Which do YOU prefer to add to your collection. Don't choose what a majority recommends to you. If you get a Rebel, would you want a tenor one or a concert one?

And if you are not willing to pay $90 more for a gloss finish, then don't worry what they call it. It has a satin-type, matte-type of finish and the terms are somewhat loosely used differently by different makers. Both will be fine.

Which do I prefer to add to my collection? I'm not sure! I'm trying to decide. No, I'm not looking for a majority -- just good reasons for choosing one or the other. I'm still leaning toward a concert, but good arguments (such as easier fingerpicking) could sway me.

Thanks very much for the link to the poll! It's interesting -- tenors are clearly the most popular (for the 150 who voted, anyway), but it's interesting how close sopranos and concerts are in popularity.

 

[Dohle]

I would expect a semi-gloss finish to be halfway between, as well. I was somewhat confused because the other day I found a blog entry by a manufacturer about finishes, which claimed that matte, satin, and semi-gloss are all the same.

I think they are indeed the same. Matte, satin, etc., are all some form of glossy finish that's been buffed to smoother look and feel. Whether or not that results in a smooth or grainy texture regarding the feel depends on what kind of finish was applied in the first place, grain-filled or open pore. At least that's what I've been told on the subject. I think I've heard the term silk used as well. Surely just another term for the same thing.

Which do I prefer to add to my collection? I'm not sure! I'm trying to decide. No, I'm not looking for a majority -- just good reasons for choosing one or the other. I'm still leaning toward a concert, but good arguments (such as easier fingerpicking) could sway me.

Thanks very much for the link to the poll! It's interesting -- tenors are clearly the most popular (for the 150 who voted, anyway), but it's interesting how close sopranos and concerts are in popularity.

Tenors aren't automatically easier for fingerpicking or anything else really. That comes down to simply personal preference. I prefer concerts to tenors because I find fingerpicking and playing in general easier on a concert because I don't have to stretch as much on a concert. Also since I also play sopranos it's easier for me to adjust to a concert than to a tenor when switching ukes. I think you should just go with whatever feels best for you. Of course a tenor - especially when comparing the same model - will give a fuller, more resonant sound, but if that's not an issue for you then you should focus on just playability.

Regarding the Rebel brand in general, I think you find lots of them on sale used because
1) they're manufactured in relatively high numbers which would result in lots of used sales, and
2) they're one step below the revered Hawaiian K brands in terms of prestige/quality. I'm guessing lots of people who move on to the K brands will sell their Rebel (or Opio/similar quality uke). Personally, I don't find that much difference between Rebel ukes or similar ukes produced in the Far East compared to the K brands, or at least the standard models. I've seen some shoddy examples of KoAloha and Kanile'a ukes, even Kamaka ukes, and I've seen some brilliant examples of Far Eastern made ukes from the likes of Millar, Pono and indeed Rebel that, in my opinion, would rival some of those revered K brands. I wouldn't worry about the quality of Rebel at all. There's always the risk you'll get a dud but that can happen with any brand. If you buy from a reputable dealer you can always return it.

 

[merlin666]

merlin666, why don't you care for acacia (and why do you put it in quotes?)? My understanding is that koa is very closely related to acacia (if not a variety of acacia), and that they sound similar. Do you like koa?

"Acacia" is mainly a generic marketing term as it refers to a family that encompasses hundreds of tree and shrub species with different woods. This includes the Acacia koa that grows on Hawaii and is traditional uke wood. Other kinds of Acacia are certainly nice and also suitable for Uke use, but I have not yet played a uke made of the commonly utilized Acacia confusa (a weed) that I would have wanted to take home. I am definitely not a wood snob, as I don't believe that any commonly used wood is better or worse than another. It's all just marketing where "acacia" means it looks kinda like koa and "mahogany" means it looks kinda like mahogany.

 

[magicspeller]

Tenors aren't automatically easier for fingerpicking or anything else really. That comes down to simply personal preference. I prefer concerts to tenors because I find fingerpicking and playing in general easier on a concert because I don't have to stretch as much on a concert. Also since I also play sopranos it's easier for me to adjust to a concert than to a tenor when switching ukes. I think you should just go with whatever feels best for you. Of course a tenor - especially when comparing the same model - will give a fuller, more resonant sound, but if that's not an issue for you then you should focus on just playability.

It's not a big issue. It's one of those "would be nice to haves" but at this point that feature is not as important as others.

You make good points about advantages of a concert. Right now I'm leaning strongly in that direction. All the comments here have helped, and in addition, I've been switching between a tenor and a concert while practicing my music, and it seems that the concert just "fits" better. I'm having to adjust the position of the tenor more often because it keeps sliding down. I have a strap for my tenor, but I prefer not to bother with it.

Regarding the Rebel brand in general, I think you find lots of them on sale used because
1) they're manufactured in relatively high numbers which would result in lots of used sales, and
2) they're one step below the revered Hawaiian K brands in terms of prestige/quality. I'm guessing lots of people who move on to the K brands will sell their Rebel (or Opio/similar quality uke). Personally, I don't find that much difference between Rebel ukes or similar ukes produced in the Far East compared to the K brands, or at least the standard models. I've seen some shoddy examples of KoAloha and Kanile'a ukes, even Kamaka ukes, and I've seen some brilliant examples of Far Eastern made ukes from the likes of Millar, Pono and indeed Rebel that, in my opinion, would rival some of those revered K brands. I wouldn't worry about the quality of Rebel at all. There's always the risk you'll get a dud but that can happen with any brand. If you buy from a reputable dealer you can always return it.

Very interesting. Your experience with "shoddy examples" of the four Ks is enlightening, and I appreciate your strong endorsement of Rebel.

 

[magicspeller]

"Acacia" is mainly a generic marketing term as it refers to a family that encompasses hundreds of tree and shrub species with different woods.,,Acacia confusa (a weed)...It's all just marketing where "acacia" means it looks kinda like koa and "mahogany" means it looks kinda like mahogany.

Very, very interesting. That's definitely an argument in favor of the mango Rebel versus the acacia Opio. Thanks.

 

[rainbow21]

Much of the info you receive here is "what I heard". So this is what I have heard regarding finishes and acacia, specific to the KoAloha brand.

On the KoAloha tour over three years ago, I inquired about the pikake line which has their satin finish but had not been produced for quite a while. I was told they were going to do so again (which they have). The reason for the wait was that the satin finish is a single coat that is applied and is not buffed afterwards. So the finishing room had to be absolutely dust free with a negative air pressure. This required special work on the room (not the ukuleles) to prepare for a pikake model run. The gloss models required multiple coats with buffing in between, necessitating a lot more work (thus increased cost), but any imperfections, such as dust while coating or drying, could be buffed out. So it is not taking a shiny buffed gloss and rubbing out the shine to a different finish.

Acacia is a family of trees that includes koa. Koa is the species that only grows in Hawaii and that we are familiar with. The acacia that is used in the KoAloha Opio line is not just for marketing and randomly selected. It is likely the closest relative to koa that is found in Asia (in abundance and so much cheaper) and with much of the same characteristics. The proof of the pudding is that at the factory, I was able to compare a KoAloha koa concert with an Opio Acacia concert. They sound and feel almost exactly the same. After a few back and forth (and not a double blind test), one might agree that the koa is (ever so slightly) preferred. And it is not clear if that is because of the small factory production team in Hawaii versus the Asian factory. And that is how it should be... The Opio was almost indistinguishable from the KoAloha, but if you wanted their best, you would have to jump up in price by a few hundred dollars.

That is "what I heard"... but first hand at the KoAloha factory and from handling their koa and acacia models in order to compare them.

And the choice is then back to the difference in sound between mango and acacia. Both are excellent!

 

[magicspeller]

Thank you, rainbow21! Personal experience counts for a lot.

 

[Dohle]

On the KoAloha tour over three years ago, I inquired about the pikake line which has their satin finish but had not been produced for quite a while. I was told they were going to do so again (which they have). The reason for the wait was that the satin finish is a single coat that is applied and is not buffed afterwards. So the finishing room had to be absolutely dust free with a negative air pressure. This required special work on the room (not the ukuleles) to prepare for a pikake model run. The gloss models required multiple coats with buffing in between, necessitating a lot more work (thus increased cost), but any imperfections, such as dust while coating or drying, could be buffed out. So it is not taking a shiny buffed gloss and rubbing out the shine to a different finish.

Thanks for the info. This is why I disclaimed that "I was told" what I knew about the subject. Just goes to show that I ain't no expert yet.

 

[magicspeller]

Very interesting response to my finish question from Baan:

Q: The description of your Double Creme Rebels says they have a satin finish; the description of the Opio Acacia says it is semi-gloss. I just read an article that said that matte, satin, and semi-gloss are all the same. Is that true? If it's not the case, can you tell me a little more about the finish on these two products and how they are different?

A: Double Creme (satin) and Opio Acacia (semi-gloss). The gloss is slightly different. We will compare the gloss percentage of the color for you.
Gloss 100%
Semigloss 50%
Satin 30-40%
Matte 0%

 

[Kenn2018]

Very interesting response to my finish question from Baan:

Q: The description of your Double Creme Rebels says they have a satin finish; the description of the Opio Acacia says it is semi-gloss. I just read an article that said that matte, satin, and semi-gloss are all the same. Is that true? If it's not the case, can you tell me a little more about the finish on these two products and how they are different?

A: Double Creme (satin) and Opio Acacia (semi-gloss). The gloss is slightly different. We will compare the gloss percentage of the color for you.
Gloss 100%
Semigloss 50%
Satin 30-40%
Matte 0%

I currently have: The Rebel Mango Tenor Double Creme / Matte 1-Series / 2020
It is not a matte finish. A true matte finish has very little reflection at all. (Similar to matte paint.) It has a tooth to the finish That creates the matte effect. It also makes a lot of noise when you rub it or drag a sleeve across it. And you will quickly get glossy areas win places where you touch the surface. Mostly where your right arm sits or holds the uke, and strumming scratches across the soundboard.

The Opio that I had had more of a satin finish. Some uke makers call it a "Natural" finish. Today, many necks are finished this way. Because some peoples' hands tend to stick to a high gloss finish as they try to move up and down the neck. The finish was a bit rough in texture. Almost like the finish hadn't been sanded and rubbed out between coats. Though the spruce top was totally smooth with zero pores visible.

My Rebel's finish has a satin leaning towards semi-gloss finish. It has a silky feel to it. The pores of the mango wood have been mostly filled to give a fairly smooth surface to the wood. It's nicely done, and a joy to play. I bought this model because it was $100 UDS less than the high gloss spalted mango model. A bit of a plain Jane compared to some of the spalted ones. No glossy scratches or patchy areas have developed on the uke.

Semi gloss basically tones down the highly reflective shine of a high gloss. It still reflects light and shows the wood very well. Skin doesn't stick to the surface quite as much as with a high gloss finish. Many Nitrocellulose Lacquer finishes fall into this category.

High Gloss is usually a polyurethane finish. It has a very glassy smooth reflective surface that you can often see yourself in. It really brings out the very best of the wood's color and grain. Almost looks wet. I really like a high gloss finish, but if the polyurethane is too thick, it can mute the sound.

These are my opinions. I'm sure if you look up ukulele or guitar finishes you'll get different definitions.

 

[magicspeller]

Thank you, Kenn. Just to be clear (still trying to learn), are you saying that semi gloss is probably nitrocellulose lacquered, or that nitrocellulose lacquered is high gloss?

FWIW, I just bought a mango Double Creme satin (but a concert) for the same reason you bought the satin model.

 

[Kenn2018]

Thank you, Kenn. Just to be clear (still trying to learn), are you saying that semi gloss is probably nitrocellulose lacquered, or that nitrocellulose lacquered is high gloss?

Nitrocellulose finishes can have a high gloss. My understanding is that it takes several coats that are rubbed out (smoothed) between each one. Often they are thinner than a poly finish so the texture of the wood comes through and you don't have that glassy smooth, finish that is, to me, a high gloss.

You can have a polyurethane finish that is either through additives or a finishing step that is dulled to a semigloss, satin or matte look.

When I did some work for Sherwin-Williams they said matte paints had a tooth to it. Similar to water color paper or boards. That rough tooth to the surface creates the matte look tot he finish. And why it can be worn smooth which makes it look glossier.

I'm not a luthier and don't know all of the finishing materials used. Or the steps it takes to produce the variations in the final look. Many makers are moving away from the volatile lacquers and shellacs to the more environmentally-friendly polymer materials.

Congratulations on your new Rebel concert. I think you'll be happy with it.

 

[merlin666]

Do any of the three K brands still use Nitrocellulose?

 

[magicspeller]

Kenn2018, thanks for all the information. It's very interesting.

I do definitely hope I'll get my uke eventually. As far as I can tell, it sat for three days in the Bangkok airport and another three in the "Inward Office of Exchange" in the U.S. I think that's Customs, but I'm not sure.

 

[rainbow21]

I do definitely hope I'll get my uke eventually. As far as I can tell, it sat for three days in the Bangkok airport and another three in the "Inward Office of Exchange" in the U.S. I think that's Customs, but I'm not sure.

Is this in your hands finally?

 

[magicspeller]

Yes! And I love it!

 

[badhabits]

Yes! And I love it!

worst NUD ever!