Interval training by ear

[captain-janeway]

For all of you music theory people:
I'm trying to learn ear training with Jim DeVille. I'm trying to do interval training.
I was looking at a test sheet from one week and something didn't make sense.
In key of F, A perfect 4 ascending was written as XX11. shouldn't it be XX12?
Things are making sense more in general but this didn't. One seems to land on A# and the other on B which makes more sense.
All the googling I did only found examples in key of C. Anyone?

 

[SweetWaterBlue]

Not sure I understand your question exactly, but would be very interested in your impressions of the lessons/course you are taking with Jim. I sometimes jam with bluegrass guys who can play a tune by ear after only hearing it once or twice. Its something I haven't mastered.

 

[ailevin]

For all of you music theory people:
I'm trying to learn ear training with Jim DeVille. I'm trying to do interval training.
I was looking at a test sheet from one week and something didn't make sense.
In key of F, A perfect 4 ascending was written as XX11. shouldn't it be XX12?
Things are making sense more in general but this didn't. One seems to land on A# and the other on B which makes more sense.
All the googling I did only found examples in key of C. Anyone?

I am not a registered theory person, but here goes. The two notes that are a perfect 4th apart are 5 half steps apart. That interval is five half steps, which is five frets. The E and A strings are tuned a perfect 4th apart. You can test if the E and A strings are in tune relative to each other by playing (XX50)--the notes on the E and A should be the same.

So playing, XX00, XX11, XX22, and so on all the way up the fretboard will give you notes that are a perfect fourth apart. In the key of F (F major), the first note of the scale is F (XX1X), the second note is G (XX3X), a whole step or two frets higher than F, the third note is A, a whole step or two frets higher than G. The A can be played on the A string (XXX0) or on the E string (XX5X). The fourth note of the F major scale is Bb (XXX1 is the easiest way to play Bb but XX6X would work too) a half step of one fret higher than A.

Very long winded I know, but for any major scale the pattern from the first note to the fourth note goes whole step, whole step, half step. The fourth note of any major scale is 5 half steps from the first note of that scale. I guess you could say that the definition of the interval called fourth is five half steps. So I agree with DeVille XX11 is a perfect ascending fourth. I would also say that the pattern of intervals between the notes going from the first note to that note one octave higher is what defines a major scale. The note that the scale starts on (the first note of the scale) defines which major scale it is.

Alan

 

[Mfturner]

Building a little on @ailevin The F major scale is F G A Bb C D E.

If you think of that note in the xx11 as a Bb instead of an A# it might make a little more sense that the Fourth is the Bb.

So You were correct in thinking that the fourth wouldn’t be an “A-something” but needs to be a “B-something” note.

This is an example where string instrument players ( guitarists and uke players ) tend to speak of keys and notes in terms of sharps, and it breaks down a little for keys of F Bb Eb Ab Db. But that’s alright, horn players have the opposite problem and think of everything as a flatted note. They love those flatted keys in that list.

 

[dancephoto]

What Alan wrote should get you on the right track.

This might be helpful.
Instruments played in Bluegrass such as banjo, mandolin, and fiddle have an advantage when playing by ear because the relationship between the strings is constant. Each string is a fifth apart. Whatever string and "fret" you play, the interval of a fifth is always right next to it on the same fret on the next string. The relationship with all the other intervals also is constant, they are the same number of frets away on the next string. For example, a fourth is always two frets lower (in pitch) on the next string. That is not the case on ukulele, because the relationship between their strings is not constant. From the G to the C is a fourth, from the C to the E is a major third, from the E to the A is a fourth. So where the interval you want to play (or hear) will be on the next string varies depending on what string you start on. That makes it a little more difficult to create the muscle memory for playing by ear (and for ear training) on guitar or ukulele.

 

[captain-janeway]

And mfturner

Thanks so much
That makes more sense. I thought it would be whole steps so going F, G, A, B, C... No # or b.
So finishing the ascending scale in F it would be XX10 (F), XX13 (G), XXX0 (A), XXX1 (Bb), XXX3(C), XXX5(D), XXX6(E), XXX8 (F) ?
Just drop the # and b? I
I was reading that ascending scale was # and descending as b. The comparison to other instruments was helpful because I guess for other instruments you're not using the same fret or key for the same note (A#/Bb).

 

[Mfturner]

I would write an ascending scale in F maj as xx1x, xx3x, xxx0, xxx1, xxx3, xxx5, xxx7, xxx8 to get those notes, slightly different. For a major scale, regardless of the note you start on, the intervals in frets should be 2, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2, 1.

 

[dancephoto]

I was reading that ascending scale was # and descending as b. The comparison to other instruments was helpful because I guess for other instruments you're not using the same fret or key for the same note (A#/Bb).

If I understand what you are saying, it is incorrect. All the fretted instruments that have been mentioned (as well as piano and other keyboard instruments) play enharmonic notes—notes with different names that sound the same—using the same fret and string positions. In other words, Bb/A# are the same note on the ukulele and the other instruments mentioned.

On string 1 (A), the names of the notes on the various frets are:
Fret
1 = A#/Bb
2 = B
3 = C
4 = C#/Db
5 = D
etc.

It might be useful to have you ukulele to play as you read.

Only in certain situations is a # or a b related to ascending or descending. It is best for starters to understand that every note on every string and fret is equal and independent to every other one. The reason that a certain noted might be called A# one time and Bb the next is farther down the road of music theory and relates to music notation conventions decided hundreds of years ago. A# has nothing inherently to do with A, it is just another note, a note that could have had a less confusing name.

As Alan mentioned earlier and Mfturner just mentioned, the relative distance (number of frets) between one note and another is what is important, not the note names. For example, if we want to play the first three notes of "Three Blind Mice" (which are the same as the three notes of a major scale, do re mi backwards) on the first string we play the note on the fourth fret, then the note on the second fret, then the open string (the 0 fret). It doesn't matter what the names of the notes are, it is the relationship of the notes/frets—play the 4th fret, skip a fret, play the next fret (2nd) then skip a fret, play the next fret (which in this case would be the 0 fret).

You can play the same melody starting on any note on any string as long as you start on the fourth fret or higher. If you start on the 9th fret, you use the same relationship of notes and play the 9th, skip a fret, play the next fret (7th) then skip a fret, play the next fret (5th). Start anywhere (above the fourth fret) on any string and try the pattern. You will always get Three Blind Mice, and it has nothing to do with the names of the notes. (Knowing the names of the notes is useful, but not important for what we are talking about here.)

Unless a person has perfect pitch (the ability to name a note just by listening), no one can tell if the names of the notes you are playing contain sharps or flats. But everyone will know that you are playing Three Blind Mice.

 

[captain-janeway]

If I understand what you are saying, it is incorrect. All the fretted instruments that have been mentioned (as well as piano and other keyboard instruments) play enharmonic notes—notes with different names that sound the same—using the same fret and string positions. In other words, Bb/A# are the same note on the ukulele and the other instruments mentioned.

On string 1 (A), the names of the notes on the various frets are:
Fret
1 = A#/Bb
2 = B
3 = C
4 = C#/Db
5 = D
etc.

It might be useful to have you ukulele to play as you read.

Only in certain situations is a # or a b related to ascending or descending. It is best for starters to understand that every note on every string and fret is equal and independent to every other one. The reason that a certain noted might be called A# one time and Bb the next is farther down the road of music theory and relates to music notation conventions decided hundreds of years ago. A# has nothing inherently to do with A, it is just another note, a note that could have had a less confusing name.

As Alan mentioned earlier and Mfturner just mentioned, the relative distance (number of frets) between one note and another is what is important, not the note names. For example, if we want to play the first three notes of "Three Blind Mice" (which are the same as the three notes of a major scale, do re mi backwards) on the first string we play the note on the fourth fret, then the note on the second fret, then the open string (the 0 fret). It doesn't matter what the names of the notes are, it is the relationship of the notes/frets—play the 4th fret, skip a fret, play the next fret (2nd) then skip a fret, play the next fret (which in this case would be the 0 fret).

You can play the same melody starting on any note on any string as long as you start on the fourth fret or higher. If you start on the 9th fret, you use the same relationship of notes and play the 9th, skip a fret, play the next fret (7th) then skip a fret, play the next fret (5th). Start anywhere (above the fourth fret) on any string and try the pattern. You will always get Three Blind Mice, and it has nothing to do with the names of the notes. (Knowing the names of the notes is useful, but not important for what we are talking about here.)

Unless a person has perfect pitch (the ability to name a note just by listening), no one can tell if the names of the notes you are playing contain sharps or flats. But everyone will know that you are playing Three Blind Mice.

Thanks. Great description!