Learning second position chords

[rreffner]

I use OnSong on a tablet and want to learn and incorporate second (and maybe third?) position cords when strumming. I am able to edit my chord library and create and set second position chords as the default pattern. I set the diagram position within, and find this ok, however learning is slow. Any suggestions to help my learning process? Thanks..

 

[Yukio]

This is the where I first heard the term "CAGFD" (pronounced cag-fud).
Bosko's CAGFD System

 

[anthonyg]

I use OnSong on a tablet and want to learn and incorporate second (and maybe third?) position cords when strumming. I am able to edit my chord library and create and set second position chords as the default pattern. I set the diagram position within, and find this ok, however learning is slow. Any suggestions to help my learning process? Thanks..

It just takes time.

I often incorporate both first and second position chords into the same song, and just arbitrarily use one or the other and see what happens. You will definitely make mistakes for a while.

Lets say we are playing Cmaj, Fmaj, Gmaj. Sometimes it could be (from low to high) 0003, 2010, 0232, sometimes 0003, 5553, 7775. Sometimes 5433, 5553, 7773. Sometimes 5433, 5553, 0232.
If you play Cmaj, Fmaj, Cmaj. You could play it 0003, 2010, 0003, or you could play it 0003, 2010, 5433.

Maybe some of this is just faffing about, maybe some of it works musically.
You don't know until you try.

It takes time and you just have to start.
Playing multiple position's of the same chord in one song, DOES help you remember them.

 

[rreffner]

This is the where I first heard the term "CAGFD" (pronounced cag-fud).
Bosko's CAGFD System

Hi Yukio. I have an understanding of the CAGFD system and it is great. It’s very useful figuring out chords. My issue is trying to memorize a bunch of them so I can go to them freely, as is with the ease of open cords. Thanks for your advice.

 

[Canada Jim]

I have three main moveable (closed) major chord shape that I rely on:
C - 5433 with the root on the 1st and 4th strings,
G - 4232 with the root on the 2nd string,
E - 4442 with the root on the 3rd string,
Three main seventh chords:
C7 - 5463 with root on 1st and 4th strings,
G7 - 4535 with root on 2nd string,
E7 - 4445 with root on 3rd string.
Three main minor chords:
Cm - 5333 with root on 1st and 4th strings,
Am - 2453 with root on 2nd string,
Em - 4432 with root on 3rd string.
One main diminished chord:
A, Eb, F# or C dim - 2323 - Any string can serve as a root depending on context.

Since these are all closed chords (no open strings) they can be moved anywhere on the neck, getting their names from the root string.

 

[Oldscruggsfan]

Jim Yates said, “…, getting their names from the root string.” I’ve personally never heard or seen a clearer explanation / description of moveable chord shapes and why they’re movable.

Thank you, Jim!

 

[Brian PacNW]

Flash cards helped me. Flash cards for the CAGFD shapes and the names of each note on the fretboard.

Here is me learning some minor 7th shapes.



And a note.

 

[rreffner]

Flash cards helped me. Flash cards for the CAGFD shapes and the names of each note on the fretboard.

Here is me learning some minor 7th shapes.

View attachment 149263 View attachment 149264

And a note.

View attachment 149260 View attachment 149262

Thank you. Very helpful.

 

[Yukio]

Hi Yukio. I have an understanding of the CAGFD system and it is great. It’s very useful figuring out chords. My issue is trying to memorize a bunch of them so I can go to them freely, as is with the ease of open cords. Thanks for your advice.

Ah, I hear you, rreffner. I never went through a mnemonic-aid process of learning 2nd and 3rd position chords. I learned them by by playing swing.

I was in three different swing bands, playing rhythm ukulele and singing over the six or seven years prior to SARSCoV2.

As you may be aware, for swing rhythm to pop, you are always 'pumping' (striking and instantly muting) closed-form chords. Open chords are almost never used. When you play a lot in this style, your default chords are almost always second position chords and you usually know where the position is for the next inversion of the chord higher up the neck.

I never think in numbers like this, but for communication purposes only, for me a default G chord is 4232 with a barre on the second fret and C is 5433 with a barre on the third fret. (I guess I could have just cribbed off of Jim's post above...) You start there and then figure out all the minor, dominant, minor7, dim7, 6th, maj7, etc. chords from there.

The point is, I learned these chords shapes and positions by just playing songs. It is a lot of fun and there is a huge repertoire to choose from. I think it would be, for me at least, a lot more fun to learn this way than by trying to memorise them by rote methods. The songs don't even have to be swing songs, per se. Just yesterday I posted two pop songs on Season 576 of the Ukulele. They were Big Girls Don't Cry by the Four Seasons (all played in the second position where the progression is super logical and handy) and Do You Love Me by The Contours (which needed four inversions of C7 as part of the pre-chorus.). This is just practical playing.





I hope you enjoy your ukulele journey rreffner!

-Yukio

 

[ripock]

I have a question about the naming conventions. When I speak with guitarists a first position chord is one where the index finger is on the first fret and a second position chord is one where the index is on the 2nd fret. But in this thread the positions are just the instances of the root. So a 1st position chord is the first (lowest) instance of the root no matter where it occurs. Is that right?

Assuming that I do have that right, let me say that I don't feel this is a very helpful system because you have to memorize 12 discrete shapes for the first position and then 12 discrete shapes for the second. And then 12 for the third. It is a lot more economical if you just memorize 4 shapes (one per string). Then, if the root of the chord is on the G string you just move to chord so that you're covering that note and then you have your chord regardless of whether it is a first, second, third, or fourth position chord. If you ask me to play a c major rooted on the 15th fret I can do it, if you ask me to play a c major rooted on the 8th fret I can do it...but I cannot tell you what position I'm playing.

 

[anthonyg]

I have a question about the naming conventions. When I speak with guitarists a first position chord is one where the index finger is on the first fret and a second position chord is one where the index is on the 2nd fret. But in this thread the positions are just the instances of the root. So a 1st position chord is the first (lowest) instance of the root no matter where it occurs. Is that right?

I'm not an expert, yet I believe that everyone is getting a little mixed up.
I'm talking first position, second position third, ect, in terms of CAGED on guitar or CAGFD on a ukulele.
So, we are talking 5 positions per 12 frets, whether it be Maj, Min, Min7 and on and on.
So, C Maj ukulele is 0003 (first position), 5433 (2nd position (A maj shape)), 5787 (3rd position(G Maj shape)), 9787 4th position (F maj shape)) then 12,12,12,10 (5th position (D Maj shape)).

 

[Yukio]

I'm not an expert, yet I believe that everyone is getting a little mixed up.
I'm talking first position, second position third, ect, in terms of CAGED on guitar or CAGFD on a ukulele.
So, we are talking 5 positions per 12 frets, whether it be Maj, Min, Min7 and on and on.
So, C Maj ukulele is 0003 (first position), 5433 (2nd position (A maj shape)), 5787 (3rd position(G Maj shape)), 9787 4th position (F maj shape)) then 12,12,12,10 (5th position (D Maj shape)).

I am also not an expert, but I think if this is correct, it is not super useful. At least not to me. In CAGED or CAGFD on the ukulele, sometimes the pattern doesn't help. In your example, you assign 3rd position to a G major shape. I never use G major as a movable shape (try and finger 5787 and you will see why.)

The way ripock is naming positions by first position = first fret and second position = second fret works fine for single note melody lines. In playing melodies, you often shift your hand position up and down for each phrase of the melody to access notes in a convenient way. But I don't think it applies to chords, or else you would be wasting your time constructing a lot of un-fingerable chords and finding only a few good ones per position.

Now, the way I use the term 'position' as it refers to chords is much more approximate. I would say chords at the nut are 'open chords' and chords between the nut and the fourth fret are 'first position' chords. At the fifth fret, I would call them 'second position' chords and from somewhere between the 7th and 12th frets, 'third position' chords. This is my own naming convention and I don't know if it stacks up with other people. It is practical, however. You usually find the different chord inversions in these approximate zones on the fretboard.

 

[pondweed]

I found CAGFD interesting to get me thinking, years ago; the theory extends your conscious incompetence.
But I never did anything about it.
Now I just have a list of alternative higher positions, with generally the simplest fingerable being highlighted for potential use.
If I can get some of those in to group play, great.
The more I can practice, the more likely they will stay in memory to attempt to use.

 

[RafterGirl]

Now I just have a list of alternative higher positions, with generally the simplest fingerable being highlighted for potential use.
If I can get some of those in to group play, great.
The more I can practice, the more likely they will stay in memory to attempt to use.

This is basically how I do it. I use ukebuddy.com to look at alternative fingerings for chords. I'll pick one that's easy for me to play & that sounds good. I have my basic C, G, D, F, and some minor & 7th chords fairly memorized. I notate them on my music to jog my memory. I'll throw them in songs to spice things up, like on a chorus. It sounds great when you're playing with a group, adds dimension.

 

[Yukio]

Throwing in an 'alternatively fingered chord' at random might open your skills a bit and maybe give extra interest to the player, but for me, it kind of misses the power of using these other positions.

One such powerful thing is that it can make a progression very logical with a minimum amount of movement between successive chords. If you take a look at the Big Girls Don't Cry video above (you can turn off the sound if you don't like it ; ) ) you will see that my chording hand mostly stays in place around the second fret for the verse sections. I am playing a repeating two-bar like this for most of the verse:
/ G Em / Am D / All are closed forms except for the standard open D major chord (2220). This way I don't move my chording hand much.

The beauty is in the usefulness of these higher playing positions, not just a 'novelty' factor.

 

[Brian PacNW]

Throwing in an 'alternatively fingered chord' at random might open your skills a bit and maybe give extra interest to the player, but for me, it kind of misses the power of using these other positions.

One such powerful thing is that it can make a progression very logical with a minimum amount of movement between successive chords. If you take a look at the Big Girls Don't Cry video above (you can turn off the sound if you don't like it ; ) ) you will see that my chording hand mostly stays in place around the second fret for the verse sections. I am playing a repeating two-bar like this for most of the verse:
/ G Em / Am D / All are closed forms except for the standard open D major chord (2220). This way I don't move my chording hand much.

The beauty is in the usefulness of these higher playing positions, not just a 'novelty' factor.

+1
Creep by Radiohead is very much like that. The chords are
G-B-C-Cm (So I-III-IV-iv)
It's very easy to do using movable chord shapes. Sounds better too in my opinion.
4232 - 4322 - 5433 - 5333

 

[rreffner]

This is my present method of learning second position chords while playing.

 

[Steedy]

"Check out guitar George, he knows all the chords" -Dire Straits, 'Sultans of Swing'

If old George really knew all the chords, it's not because he memorized them. He probably just learned how chords are constructed and where all the notes are on the fingerboard, so he then knew where to find all the chord shapes & inversions up and down the neck. This made George a guitar hero, and he freely admitted it's not that difficult to do!

 

[Yukio]

This is my present method of learning second position chords while playing.

Hmm... That chart kind of illustrates my comment above about using the chords in a logical way so as to keep your fretting hand movements to a minimum. There is too much movement here.
May I go through the chords in order and make edits?

I would play C as a full barre across fret 3, but otherwise the same as indicated.
I would play G as a full barre across fret 2, but otherwise the same as indicated. (It is easy to slide the barre down from fret 3 to fret 2.)
I would play Dm with the same full barre at fret 2 and a partial barre of the top three strings at fret 5, essentially 2555.
G7 is a mistake on your chart. The partial barre blocks the tonic G-note on the E-string. This should be a four-fingered chord 4535.
Then back to C as before.
For the next section, the Am is fine as written, but if you play the F as you would a standard E-major shape as 5553, you get to keep the same hand position and your index remains on the note C located on the third fret of the A-string. There is a lot more economy of motion with this move instead of going to a barre across fret 5 like in the diagrams.

I think it is easier to play this way and makes good use of the positioning of these chords.

Cheers!
-Yukio

 

[Yukio]

+1
Creep by Radiohead is very much like that. The chords are
G-B-C-Cm (So I-III-IV-iv)
It's very easy to do using movable chord shapes. Sounds better too in my opinion.
4232 - 4322 - 5433 - 5333

PERFECT EXAMPLE! Nice one, Brian!