Octave Ukulele

[mds725]

BTW in 2011 I posted this question "Is there such a thing as a steek string baritone uke? Not a tenor guitar but a reel baritone uke." The only reply I got was Southcoastuke saying that REAL baritone ukes do not have steel strings. Was that just one mans opinion?

Go back and reread posts 12 and 15 in this thread.

 

[Rick Turner]

If your definition of a tenor guitar is "anything close to guitar pitch with steel strings", then I guess you could call Mark's instrument a tenor guitar. But to me, a tenor guitar is kind of defined by being tuned in 5ths...Chicago tuning not withstanding.

It goes back to the history of tenor guitars...they were made so that tenor banjo players could have a guitar-like tone in the increasingly sophisticated dance bands of the 1920s where the brashness of the banjo was not wanted anymore. By tuning a guitar-like instrument the same as a tenor banjo, the players could easily switch over. Eventually, players like Bill Tapia had to learn those two extra strings and switched (mostly) to playing archtop guitars. So the heritage of the tenor guitar is based in a very different tuning system than ukes or baritone ukes.

This particular organological definition has more to do with the tuning than either the number of strings or the size of the instrument. It can certainly be argued, but to my mind, "steel string baritone uke" tells exactly what it is...an instrument tuned as a baritone uke (D, G, B, E), having steel strings, and being between uke and guitar size. And yes, if you restrung it and retuned it, it could very well be re-defined as a tenor guitar. And yes, it would work with nylon strings, though it's braced for steel.

Uke players seem to be very touchy about expanding the range and definitions of what a uke is...much more so than guitarists. Why is that? Guitar players have no problem with tenor guitars, five string guitars (Keith Richards), seven, eight, and ten string classical guitars, harp guitars, twelve string guitars, baritone guitars, lap steel guitars, pedal steel guitars...it goes on and on with barely a peep of protest. Let's open it up a bit for uke builders and players.

 

[southcoastukes]

I'll disagree with Rick on this one. It's not easy to come up with a new name for an instrument category, but I think strings have more importance than tuning. After all, we don't call linear tuned Ukuleles something other than an Ukulele just because they aren't tuned in the Ukulele reentrant style. Steel or classical strings mean a different type of construction, and though you can switch them around, an instrument will sound best with the strings and tensions it was braced for.

There's also history to consider. I come from as much of a Tenor Guitar as an Ukulele background, and have owned several of these Regal models:

http://antebelluminstruments.blogspot.com/2010/01/c1925-regal-tenor-guitar.html

They're the practically the same size and most have the same scale as a Baritone Ukulele, but predate the Baritone, and have always been known as Tenor Guitars. Rick is right that the majority were once tuned in 5ths, but that was never an exclusive tuning (Eddie Condon), and "Chicago" or standard Baritone tuning has been used more often for quite some time. I don't think you go back and rename these instruments "steel strung Baritones".

We do need to come up with something for what is essentially a new category. We've built what we call "Classical Tenors" - parlor bodies built for classical strings. Pono now has their toe in that water; they’ve built some parlor bodies for classical strings and just call them TGs (for Tenor Guitar). Some people, though refer to them as “the Big Baritone”.

Rick is going there as well. I would say, Rick, that "Octave Ukulele” implies a tuning, as you illustrated with “Octave Mandolin”. At the same time, Ukulele tuning is a lot more variable than mandolin tuning, and it seems to me your instrument could easily be tuned a number of ways – including in 5ths - traditional Tenor Guitar style.

 

[Rick Turner]

http://www.tenorguitar.com/what.html

So they came on the scene about a generation before I had thought, but note the tuning.

And to further confuse the Eddie Condon issue:

http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/204405

Tenor or plectrum? Seems like "yes" to both. Tuning? Seems like several...

And I'm sticking with "octave uke" for G, C, E, A...or, if you like, A, D, F#, B an octave lower than the usual uke pitches.

And I still think that steel string baritone uke suits the instrument just as we make the distinction now between nylon string and steel string six string guitars. The steel string guitar is an evolutionary step from the gut stringed instruments, and crept in certainly by the 1890s in the US. My Elias Howe catalog from 1897 has steel strings for guitar in it.

Strings do not make a steel stringed guitar NOT be a guitar. The number of strings...and the body sizes...do lead into the gray area, but it's a wide area. So too can it be in ukedom. Yes, it gets tricky. And you could call a four stringed steel strung uke a tenor guitar. And you could put different strings on it and tune it in 5ths, and then it would certainly be a tenor guitar. It's a chameleon ukitar.

So what happens if you put nylon strings tuned in 5ths on a baritone uke.

Or what is it when my son puts some carefully picked strings on a tenor uke and tunes it in 5ths like a mandola? Sounds freakin' great, by the way... Is it then a four stringed ukola? The mandolin world has allowed 4 and 5 string electric mandolins...

And a rose by any other name...

I just try to use definitions that clearly indicate how the instrument is strung. And I don't sweat the difference between "C" and "D" tuning for uke family instruments. That's a two frets' capoed difference; it's not of the essence.

 

[southcoastukes]

I do think "Octave Ukulele" defines how most people would play that instrument. I like that name better than the "steel strung Baritone".

These look to be very nice instruments - that's the main thing after all. As Sonny Boy Williamson once said: "you can call it yo' mammy if you wanna!"

 

[FiL]

Other than for marketing purposes, I wouldn't sweat what to call it. There are few hard and fast rules in the stringed instrument world. Many instruments are known by multiple names (mandola/tenor mandola/alto mandolin), and many names are given to multiple instruments (tiple). Even the modifiers are inconsistent--an octave mandolin is an octave below a mandolin, but an octave guitar in an octave above a guitar. Trying to take a rational, scientific approach to naming instruments can only end in madness. Just call it by whatever name describes it best to you. I recently bought a Chinese-made Portuguese mandola, put Greek bouzouki strings on it, and tuned it a step below Hawaiian ukulele tuning. You could call it a steel-string 8-string uke (based on how I play it) or a uke-tuned mandola (based on how it's constructed), or maybe a tenor bouzouki (based on it's tuning relationship to the Greek bouzouki). I might just go with the filzouki.

- FiL

 

[mds725]

I'm fascinated by this discussion of what characteristics of an instrument might be used to identify its family, and I appreciate that Rick and Dirk have taken the time to share their thoughts. As a person who plays a Compass Rose steel string jumbo baritone ukulele, my relationship with this instrument has less to do with philosophy, theory, or history (all though I enjoy hearing about all those things, and I like telling people how and why the tenor guitar evolved from a banjo) and more to do with the experience of playing it. I also play a Blueridge steel string tenor guitar (tuned DGBE, so maybe it isn't really a tenor guitar at all!), more conventional baritone ukuleles, and a Compass Rose jumbo octave ukulele. So here are my humble thoughts.

> To me, ukuleles sound more percussive than guitars. I describe this percussive effect as there being a sort of "whomp" sound that accompanies the noise made when the strings are strummed. I guess this is more noticeable in smaller scale ukuleles, like sopranos and concerts, but I feel like I notice this percussive quality in larger scale ukuleles too. My CR steel string baritone is, to my ear, more percussive than my Blueridge steel string tenor guitar. I think of this percussive quality as a characteristic that distinguishes guitars from ukuleles.

> My CR jumbo steel string baritone has an ukulele neck and fretboard. That is, the strings have what I would describe as traditional ukulele spacing. The fretboard on my Blueridge is narrower and the spacing of the strings is more like the spacing of strings on a conventional six string steel guitar. This affects the feel of my left hand when fretting and the feel of my right hand when strumming or picking. I associate closer string spacing with guitars, and to that extent, playing my CR steel string baritone feels a lot more like playing a baritone ukulele than it does like playing my Blueridge tenor guitar.

> I like Rick's point about selecting a name for an instrument that best describes what it is, although what it is could depend on whether one is referring to the feel of playing it, the sound it makes, or what you have to buy when it needs new strings, among other characteristics. As I mentioned in the post from another thread that I pasted into this thread, I have an instrument that I would call a tenor uke with steel strings if the defining element is tuning (it's tuned GCEA) or a cavaqhuinho tuned GCEA if the defining characteristic is what the strings are made of. I describe both of my Compass Rose jumbo baritones (one steel string, one octave) as baritone ukuleles, but I do tell peopkle that the steel string reminds me of a tenor guitar. Ultimately, I think the person who builds an instrument (and who has to market it) ought to be able to call it what he or she wants. Frankly, what people call my instruments -- is my Blueridge no longer a tenor guitar because it's not tuned in 5ths? -- doesn't effect my experience of playing any of them.

This whole discussion reminds me of the fable about the five blind men and the elephant, in which each man feels a different part of the elephant and describes the elephant differently because of the part of the elephant on which he is focused. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

Again, I want to thank Rick and Dirk for taking the time to post, and support, their views.

 

[Rick Turner]

FiL, both Dirk and I have to confront the marketing issues. I'm a uke "manufacturer". So is Dirk. "Manus"...hand in Latin. "Facit"...to make. And "marketing" is the art/science of identifying one's potential customers with the clearest possible message about what one manufactures, delivered in the most efficient manner so that potential customers may (hopefully) be convinced to buy said product.

And then there's organology...the "science" of classifying musical instruments! I do run into this a bit since I do volunteer guest curating with the Museum of Making Music. Check out their banjo show...

 

[pt66]

Some in progress pictures of my Contra Uke (octave uke).

 

[Jon Moody]

FiL, both Dirk and I have to confront the marketing issues. I'm a uke "manufacturer". So is Dirk. "Manus"...hand in Latin. "Facit"...to make. And "marketing" is the art/science of identifying one's potential customers with the clearest possible message about what one manufactures, delivered in the most efficient manner so that potential customers may (hopefully) be convinced to buy said product.

And that might be all the rationale needed to distinguish between a tenor guitar and octave ukulele; the audience that the instrument is going to be marketed toward.

 

[pt66]

A tenor guitar typically has steel strings. I would think that an octave ukulele would typically have classical (nylon or the sort) strings. Regal made an instrument called an octofone. It was called that not because it had 8 strings but because you could tune it like 8 different instruments. I would say that the construction of an octave uke and a tenor guitar are different.

 

[Rick Turner]

We made two different instruments for Mark...one was an octave uke string with nylon, braced for nylon, and the other was the steel string baritone, braced for steel string. So yes, we made them differently. If Mark were to string the steel strung baritone with tenor strings and tune it in 5ths, I'd call it a tenor guitar. For those of you who like to think that "Chicago tuning" is kosher for a tenor guitar, then Mark's steel strung baritone uke is a tenor guitar.

Most people that I know of in the tenor guitar world use the 5ths tuning...Neko Case notwithstanding. But then, Tommy Tedesco used to carry a Cadillac trunk full of instruments...mandolins, bouzoukis, banjos, you name it. He tuned them all like guitars and did more session work in LA than any guitar player before or since. The producer wanted a banjo player? That was what Tommy-Bob did best. Need a mandolin player for a romantic Italian tune? His name is Tommaso. Got a Greek session? Thomas (with the Th as in think) is your man. Flamenco gypsy sounds...call in Tomas!

 

[Jon Moody]

But then, Tommy Tedesco used to carry a Cadillac trunk full of instruments...mandolins, bouzoukis, banjos, you name it. He tuned them all like guitars and did more session work in LA than any guitar player before or since.

That he did.

 

[mds725]

We made two different instruments for Mark...one was an octave uke string with nylon, braced for nylon, and the other was the steel string baritone, braced for steel string. So yes, we made them differently. If Mark were to string the steel strung baritone with tenor strings and tune it in 5ths, I'd call it a tenor guitar. For those of you who like to think that "Chicago tuning" is kosher for a tenor guitar, then Mark's steel strung baritone uke is a tenor guitar....

I suppose if I wanted to mess with people, I could replace the DGBE strings on my Compass Rose jumbo steel string baritone with a set of GCEA octave lower steel strings.

 

[pt66]

I think Nick Reynolds use "Chicago tuning" too. Sometimes capoed up to uke tuning.

 

[pt66]

I was looking at the classical strung tenor guitars on the South Coast web site. I couldn't find a refferance to tuning or scale length. Are they meant to be tuned in 5ths? When I design an instrument I start with the tuning. I choose a scale that I think fits the tuning and I can use easy to find strings. Then I make everything proportional to the scale length. I like to use a 12 fret neck and place the bridge a near the center of the lower bout as I can. I choose 22 inch scale because it is about the 3rd fret on a guitar (if you capo the lower 4 strings of a guitar at the 3 fret you are very close to linear octave uke tuning).

 

[southcoastukes]

I want to take one last swipe at the term “steel string Baritone”. First, let me say that Rick or anyone else should be able to call their instrument what they want. Therefore, in the final analysis, the term is legit. Given the present popularity of the Ukulele vs the Tenor Guitar, “SSB” (try that for a model name, Rick) should make for more successful marketing, and we all wish for success for our fellow instrument builders.

Nonetheless, a Tenor Guitar player will feel a sense of encroachment. Taking an “organological” approach, I don’t think you have to apply “guitar classifications” to every member of the guitar family. In other words, just because guitars can be guitars regardless of their stringing/bracing, doesn’t mean the Ukulele and Tenor Guitar should be forced to adopt “guitar rules”. They have their own history, and to me, it’s pretty evident that the only exclusive difference between the two is the stringing & bracing. Classifying by tuning is a lot more nebulous, and in the case of these two, there was no need for a 4-string instrument that could be played in Linear G – it already existed.

“Chicago tuning” (same as standard Baritone tuning) refers to the early era when Jazz first flowered in Chicago - when fellows largely from here in New Orleans brought the music north. That was the mid to late 20s, coincidentally when the instrument factories in Chicago started building those first Baritone Ukulele sized Tenor Guitars.
That’s when the “guitar”-based Chicago tuning really took off – likely because once you had something that looked like a guitar rather than a banjo, it was more likely to be played that way, as opposed to 5ths tuning. But Chicago tuning actually predates the term itself.

The “Tenor” Guitar was, indeed based on the “Tenor” Banjo, but just as it’s you shouldn’t diminish Chicago tuning on the Tenor Guitar, it’s also a mistake to think a lot of people didn’t use that set-up on the Tenor Banjo.

Some of the earliest Jazz bands here in New Orleans featured banjos tuned that way and it’s always been one of the two most popular ways to tune the Tenor Banjo (along with 5ths). I wouldn’t know how to put a percentage on it, but the first I heard of was Johnny St. Cyr in the very beginning, and it continued through Danny Barker (who started out hustling in the Quarter as a boy on a Banjo-Uke). I know a lot of banjo players still use it now.

These players also often played guitar, but again, it’s a “guitar-centric” view to think of them as guitarists playing banjo. Most here thought of them as banjo players who also played guitar. After all the banjo was the band instrument, the guitar was the solo instrument, and the good paying jobs were band work. No one here would dream of using a term like “cheaters” for some of Jazz’s great originators.

So, if a 4-string instrument of a Baritone Ukulele size and scale already existed, why create the Baritone Ukulele? The one thing Tenor Guitars never have had was classical strings. I suppose by “guitar rules” you could say they never should have never taken on the "Baritone Ukulele" name to begin with – they should have just started making classical strung Tenor Guitars. Still, the folks in those days had the same “right of a builder” to choose the name they wanted. They decided the different stringing & bracing justified a new name, and I’m sure some marketing considerations went into that decision as well. Those who play Tenor Guitars will likely stick to the traditional division, but then again, the SSB isn’t going to be marketed to them anyway.

Things do change, however, and the Tenor Guitars in production today are larger instruments (mainly to accommodate the deeper C note of 5ths tuning). Maybe since the original small size Tenor Guitars haven’t been made in such a long time, a new name (the SSB?) can fill the void.

 

[pt66]

So why are you putting classical strings on a tonor guitar rather then calling it a baritone uke? Instruments evolve. The baritone uke evolved fron the ukulele (with the help of Arther Godfry) and the tenor guitar evolved from the tenor banjo. Just because they look similar and can be tuned alike doesn't make them the same.

 

[mds725]

In the past few years, after having aquired a Blueridge tenor guitarwith Chicago (DGBE) tuning, I've considered going to the annual Tenor Guitar Gathering in June in Astoria, Oregon, but I was always concerned about what workshops there might be for me as a Chicago tuning player. I always had the impression that the "serious" tenor guitar community used tuning in 5ths. I think that this year, there may be at least one workshop for Chicago tuning players.

I suppose there's always some resistance to veering away from long-held traditions, but to give you a sense of cross-pollenization and blurry lines, here's a short quote from the TGG website: "The 'Ukes in 5ths' Workshop will share how mandolin players have been tuning ukuleles like single string mandolins to create an additional tonal palette, while the 'Nick Reynolds' Workshop will focus on the tenor guitar as a percussive baritone ukulele instrument as made popular by Nick Reynolds of the famous Kingston Trio."

For what it's worth, Mark Josephs, the president of the Tenor Guitar Foundation, which sponsors the TGG, has said this: "A tenor guitar is a tenor banjo neck on a guitar body." This definition addresses the number of strings, but it doesn't address how those strings are tuned, so I suppose it doesn't add much to this discussion except that it represents the viewpoint of at least one tenor guitar player.

 

[Rick Turner]

I'd be willing to bet that at least 95% of the tenor banjo players in the world tune their instruments in 5ths. Plectrum banjo players use more varied tunings. And, yes, there are four stringed plectrum guitars, too.

And I once transformed an old Epiphone Triumph archtop tenor guitar into a 19 stringed Mohan Vina (as played by Vishwa Mohan Bhatt).

Complicated innit?