Really dumb question about baritone music

RafterGirl

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I've made a PDF for a song to share with my uke group using Ozbcoz.com. I like ozbcoz.com because I can change the key, edit the music as I see fit, and create a new PDF to send out. It has the chord fingering diagrams on the side for people. Now I want to create a baritone PDF of the song for the baritone folks in my group. Ozbcoz.com has the niffy tab to change to baritone tuning. If my regular music is in the key of F, when I click the tuning change tab to baritone, it changes the song to the key of C, and shows the baritone fingering for the chords in C. Is that right? Wouldn't the song still be in F, just with baritone fingering?

Hopefully this question makes sense and isn't too dumb.
 

merlin666

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Thank you. That is a nice site I was not aware of it and bookmarked it. When I checked out some random songs it looked like the chords for regular uke and baritone were the same and just the fingering changed. It is nice that this also includes diagram options for other less common instruments.
 

Brad Bordessa

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Keys are keys, chords are chords. If your song is in the key of F, the baritone will be playing in the key of F too.

What it sounds like they're trying to do is show the visual equivalent for baritone. (G on baritone looks like a "C", etc...) But a song in F on baritone looks visually like it's in the key of Bb on GCEA, not C. So if that's what they're going for, it's wrong.

But the key of F on GCEA looks like the key of C on baritone. Without seeing what you're seeing it's hard to say for sure what's going on. Regardless it sounds like it's more complicated than it needs to be.

FWIW, I put together a simple transposition chart here: https://baritoneukulele.net/chords/.

You're much nicer than I am by trying to make them their own sheet! IMO, the chord names should be sufficient for everybody and, if needed, the individual players can bring a chord chart for their respective instrument whether it be uke, banjo, mandolin, piano, or kazoo.
 
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merlin666

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After looking at some more songs that I am familiar with I must conclude that these are Jim's interpretations and simplifications, even lyrics of some songs are different from versions that are commonly sung. I did not find a function that would allow editing lyrics or chords before printing. Our group also uses scriptasaurus and we have a button that allows changing content, even though the changes can't be saved without powers.
 

JackLuis

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I play Baritone and C tuned Uke. and Yes the chords are a fifth down for the same fingering in Baritone. so fret not. In fact I play what ever fingering is shown and accept that the Key changes. G-D for instance or C-G.

Google Baritone Chord chart and see the forms are the same, due to the tuning differences. Capo the Bari at 5 and it becomes a C tuned instrument.
 

Wiggy

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Keys are keys, chords are chords. ... You're much nicer than I am by trying to make them their own sheet! IMO, the chord names should be sufficient for everybody and, if needed, the individual players can bring a chord chart for their respective instrument...

I'm with Brad on this. I chose to learn Baritone and GDAE (mandolin) tuned Soprano, and don't expect anything except chord names. I play from Ukulele songbooks but only look at melody notes and chord names, not the chord boxes, and do carry my own chord sheets specific to the instrument I'm playing.
 
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VegasGeorge

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The Baritone is what they call "a transposing instrument." It will sound in F when played in C. Yeah, I know, very confusing. But, that's just the way it is. Band and orchestra players are used to it, trumpet in Bb, Horn in F, etc.
 

JackLuis

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Another way of looking at it is, chords are made of Root 3 and 5 so look at the tuning of the strings and see what the R-3-5 patterns are. Chord forms are made of these. The "F" form in Baritone is really D-G-C-E so it is a C chord. Rather than a-C-F-A on a soprano.:)
 

Jim Yates

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The Baritone is what they call "a transposing instrument." It will sound in F when played in C. Yeah, I know, very confusing. But, that's just the way it is. Band and orchestra players are used to it, trumpet in Bb, Horn in F, etc.

The baritone is not really a transposing instrument when it comes to chords. A baritone ukulele player will read a G7 as a G7 and a C as a C. When it comes to melody reading, a baritone is written an octave higher than it actually sounds in order to avoid a bass clef or too many ledger lines. It is written in the treble clef an octave higher than it sounds, the same as a guitar, so the low D string is the space below the staff in notation, but sounds like the D four ledger lines below the staff. In fact, the baritone uke is tuned like the first four strings of a guitar, sometimes called "Chicago tuning".
Probably George is thinking that a player of a C6 tuned ukulele would treat it as a transposing instrument if they didn't want to learn the proper baritone notation.
 
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kissing

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Depends on how your baritone uke players are reading the chords.

If theyre reading properly (they see an F chord and play Baritone F chord), you should all read off the same music.

A baritone F chord is the same as any other F chord. Obviously the chord fingering is different from a regular uke, but you're still playing the same chord as read.
 

mds725

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Ozbcoz.com has the niffy tab to change to baritone tuning. If my regular music is in the key of F, when I click the tuning change tab to baritone, it changes the song to the key of C, and shows the baritone fingering for the chords in C. Is that right? Wouldn't the song still be in F, just with baritone fingering?

I just went to ozbcoz and tried using the baritone tuning function (found in the "tuning" pull-down menu). The bracketed chords in the songs sheets I experimented with stayed the same, but the diagrams changed to reflect that in a baritone F is a different shape than a tenor F, and in baritone tuning, tenor chord shapes have different names. If your use of the baritone tuning function changed the names of the chords in brackets embedded in the lyrics, then you must have clicked on some other function or perhaps you picked a song that was uploaded impropery.

After looking at some more songs that I am familiar with I must conclude that these are Jim's interpretations and simplifications, even lyrics of some songs are different from versions that are commonly sung. I did not find a function that would allow editing lyrics or chords before printing. Our group also uses scriptasaurus and we have a button that allows changing content, even though the changes can't be saved without powers.

Across the top of the page, on the left side of my screen, there's a bar with several headings; from left to right: Songs, Layout, Keys, Tuning [two icons] Files, Edit, Info, and Help. When you click on "Edit" a box should appear on the right side of your screen with the lyrics in it, and you can edit and save your edits using that box.

IMG_2570.jpg IMG_2571.jpg IMG_2572.jpg
 
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Ms Bean

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I misread your opening post and I should probably read through the whole thread before replying :(

Edit
I would encourage your baritone players to learn the baritone chord shapes. The will get the main ones very quickly. Ease them into it by choosing some popular songs from Jim's huge songbook. There is a baritone version of the whole songbook (and a guitar, guitalele, mandoline, etc) version the bari players can use. If they practise regularly, they will be ok after a few weeks.
https://ozbcoz.com/songbooks/
 
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RafterGirl

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Thanks everyone. After working on it a bit more, I got it to work properly. I'm not sure why the tuning tab sometimes changed the key & sometimes didn't???? I thought it should stay the same, but wanted to verify my thinking with all of you.

I agree with Merlin666 that the ozbcoz songbook songs aren't always exactly the way I'm used to the songs, or how I want them. That's why I love the ability to change the key, edit the song (lyrics, chords, add or subtract stuff) and create a new PDF after I'm done with my edit.

I know I don't have to provide a separate songsheet for the baritone players, but thought it would be nice. Our club songbook has baritone sheets for most of our music.
 

merlin666

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I just went to ozbcoz and tried using the baritone tuning function (found in the "tuning" pull-down menu). The bracketed chords in the songs sheets I experimented with stayed the same, but the diagrams changed to reflect that in a baritone F is a different shape than a tenor F, and in baritone tuning, tenor chord shapes have different names. If your use of the baritone tuning function changed the names of the chords in brackets embedded in the lyrics, then you must have clicked on some other function or perhaps you picked a song that was uploaded impropery.



Across the top of the page, on the left side of my screen, there's a bar with several headings; from left to right: Songs, Layout, Keys, Tuning [two icons] Files, Edit, Info, and Help. When you click on "Edit" a box should appear on the right side of your screen with the lyrics in it, and you can edit and save your edits using that box.

View attachment 134829 View attachment 134830 View attachment 134831

Thanks I don't get the edit button, maybe because I am looking at this with a cell phone browser, or do you need an account and sign in?
 

RafterGirl

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No account required. I'm on a desktop, so it's much larger and easier to manage. I have used this site a ton over the last year. If I'm singing for an open mic, I can easily change the key to suit my voice, as well as change things that I prefer from other versions/other sites. When I need to send music out to a group (in person or on Zoom), I can edit and create a PDF. I'm pretty much a computer dork, so having the ability to create the PDF, instead of trying to figure out how to edit an existing PDF, is so helpful. There are lots of other great online sites that I use if I'm just singing for an open mic, or I like the format of a song and just want to print out a few paper copies for a small group.
 
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rustydusty

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Absolutely right! Chords is chords... if the baritone player has to look at a chord finger placement chart to play the next chord, he's not going to be able to keep up anyway. You should be able to say: the next song is in the key of F or G or whatever, and everyone should be in the same key...
 

Wiggy

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In grade and high school, I (tried to) play Bb clarinet and bass clarinet, piano, Eb Alto sax, fooled around with guitars, mandolin, and bass - even Anglo concertina. No one ever mentioned the words "transpose, or transposing."

The music teachers and books merely showed me how to press that specific instrument's keys, levers, or frets to play the note written on the page. My downfall was, I could never (due to the various key's sharps, flats, and accidentals) read the notation fast enough to really get proficient on any of them. My experience playing with a classical orchestra was a disaster.

Then came 4-stringed instruments and all their variations. Chords and lyrics!

I discovered right away my inability to "brain-map" the fretboard to be able to just "jam" in any key was not going to happen, and sincerely doubt that it ever will.

What I did do is rote learn (through practice and careful notes) to form chord shapes in ways that I can comfortably play (maj, dom7, min, min7, maj7 and min7) in all commonly used (A,C,D,E,F,G) keys. Being able to Play a Major progression (I-iii7-vi -IV-I-V) for each was the motivation. That's a lot, but it worked for me. I avoid all other keys except Bb.

Like "Picker" on this forum; I chose what I chose, and that's what I knows.
 
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VegasGeorge

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Well, the way I look at it, Baritone Uke is a transposing instrument even though players learn "different" chords. You see, I used to play an Eb horn. That means if I played a written C scale, it would sound as a concert Eb scale. But, I could employ tricks. Like for instance reading bass clef music as if it were written in treble clef, and simply adding three sharps to the key signature. Since the notation in bass clef is already written a minor third lower than in treble clef, the difference between the Eb horn and concert pitch (a minor third) was automatically compensated for by employing that trick. In a way, baritone Uke players employ the same type of trick. They learn the chords using shapes and positions that compensate for the difference between a Bari Uke tuned in G, and all other Ukes tuned in C. In a brass instrument the length of the open tube (no valves depressed) dictates the key of the instrument. In a Uke, the tuning of the open strings dictates the key of the instrument. If you get away from chords, and think about written melody lines, then you will see the true picture. The first measure of notes of the round Ferre Jaques (Brother John) [FONT=DDG_ProximaNova]written for a C concert instrument would be CDEC. In Bari Uke it would be written GABG. But, when played, they would sound at the same pitch.[/FONT]
 
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Wiggy

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We seem to be getting too deep, here.

I strive to learn to play in all the common keys listed in my previous post. I did this for baritone. And for soprano tuned in mandolin 5ths. They are very different chord shapes and thus make it easy for my brain to easily keep them separate.

Previously, anytime I tried to go back and forth from baritone to standard ukulele, I had to "transpose" (the only way I know how to use the word, besides transposing a song to a different key as the OP was doing) by a 4th or a 5th "rise or fall", depending on which way you look at it.

The old noggin' said no. I can't use the same chord shape to make 2 different chords. That's just me. I try to keep it simple.

I really don't care which octave I'm playing in as a C is a C, no matter the octave or clef. It may be in a higher or lower octave, but it is still a C.
 
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Rllink

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Absolutely right! Chords is chords... if the baritone player has to look at a chord finger placement chart to play the next chord, he's not going to be able to keep up anyway. ...
But they are nice to have if there is a chord that you are not familiar with, you can take a look at it before you start playing. An "oh yea, I remember that one now" kind of thing.