Reclaimed Cuban Mahogany.
- Thread starter Timbuck
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Ukecaster
Well-known member
IMO, the early mahogany Martins were probably all Cuban mahogany, as was most everything made of mahogany, since that was the supply chain at the time. Only later, when the supply of mahogany trees in Cuba had been decimated, and it was outlawed for export, did Honduran become the new standard, with others like sapele and khaya showing up too.
Does Cuban sound better? Totally subjective, but I doubt it, esp compared to Honduran. Rarity makes things more appealing to people, and some equate rarity with better sound. In the guitar world, it was Brazilian rosewood.. gorgeous stuff on early Martin guitars, now priced in the stratosphere. Does it sound better than the later East Indian rosewood?Some think so, many think not. It's the unobtainium factor at work.
Does Cuban sound better? Totally subjective, but I doubt it, esp compared to Honduran. Rarity makes things more appealing to people, and some equate rarity with better sound. In the guitar world, it was Brazilian rosewood.. gorgeous stuff on early Martin guitars, now priced in the stratosphere. Does it sound better than the later East Indian rosewood?Some think so, many think not. It's the unobtainium factor at work.
Red Cliff
Well-known member
I think the reason is that back in the day (pre 1940s) all mahogany was Cuban, so no need to specify. These days you can't buy new Cuban from Cuba (it is grown on plantations in India), so you won't find any big manufacturers using it. The only people using are those using reclaimed wood or the occasional old stash somewhere.
As for whether it matters or not, I suspect that the more important factor may be that the Cuban mahogany was old growth, not from plantations. So in getting some, you are almost guaranteeing that you have old growth wood. As was probably true when they started harvesting Honduras. But these days I imagine most mahogany of any kind is plantation grown. Does that matter? In my experience it tends to be paler in colour, have a less fine texture, and have slightly lower density, also more prone to drying issues. Afterall it has been encouraged to grow quicker.
I think the principal reason Cuban has become chic is simply demand. There’s a perception that it’s better in some way, plus it’s rarer, so it’s more in demand, which fuels the perception that it’s better.
Never underestimate a label. Example: American cosmetics are marketed with chic foreign spellings, like crème for cream and riche for rich and colour for color, because those terms make the product more attractive.
Never underestimate a label. Example: American cosmetics are marketed with chic foreign spellings, like crème for cream and riche for rich and colour for color, because those terms make the product more attractive.
There is a member of the forum who was specifically looking for a Timms' Cuban mahogany due to his father's roots in Cuba. So it had sentimental importance that the wood originated in Cuba and not sound significance. I believe he successfully bid and acquired one. (Forgive me if not quite accurate or if memory is faulty here).
I would suggest that this question has been answered in this thread. I don't believe there is any intention to mislead here; this luthier is well known, well established, his experience is extensive and well respected, and if his opinion on the likelihood of the wood identity, based on years of experience of working with various tone woods, isn't sufficient, then that's up to the buyer. If it's a really big deal to the buyer that the wood identity is more important than the tone of the instrument, and the quality of the final instrument, then that's up to the buyer. These decisions are not for us to call here on this platform.
Of course, if someone random claimed it was a specific type of wood and they didn't have the experience that this luthier has, then sure, some concern and care of research on the buyer's part would be advisable.
And questions are valid. It's good to ask. But I do think this question has been answered to the best of the abilities herein. Of course, you are welcome to not be satisfied by this answer, and choose not to purchase one of the instruments that would be created from this source. But I don't think there is value in casting aspersions on this luthier's reputation. I am not accusing you of that, but I am concerned that may be the direction this could be heading. As I say, please, if you need to, be skeptical about the provenance and identity of this wood, and be concerned on behalf of future purchasers, that is absolutely your prerogative. I think that there is enough information here in this thread for a potential buyer to make a reasonable informed decision, and they can always pipe up and ask further questions themselves before they make the commitment.
Yeah, not sure why you keep coming back to this. Without expertise and mostly from forum posts, furniture made from a certain period of time (let's say two centuries ago) did not have issues of provenance. A furniture company would source their mahogany from Cuba or Florida or the Carribean. So if today you acquired this old "Cuban" mahogany table, that is what you got.
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But that's just what you are doing, Jon.
Seths Cat
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To clarify none of my questions are accusing anybody of anything and should not be read that way.
My last post is a valid question and still is, it has nothing to do with the builders integrity or otherwise, only the situation and I am sure people have thought the same thought.
This is a forum and you have to put questions out there surely.
My last post is a valid question and still is, it has nothing to do with the builders integrity or otherwise, only the situation and I am sure people have thought the same thought.
This is a forum and you have to put questions out there surely.
Red Cliff
Well-known member
So I guess another way of looking at this is the world of antiques. Is a certain painting by a famous painter even though it wasn't signed?
Sometimes there is debate about whether something is genuine, but 99% of the time you can't be 100% sure the painting was by such and such, you just base decisions on the agreement of notable experts in the field, as Ken is doing here.
And they still hang the painting in a gallery and say it's a Van Gogh. They don't say on the plaque 'Well a few of us museum types reckon it's a Van Gogh but for all we know it could have been painted by anyone'.
Now I can see your point, should the museum do that or should they be more transparent with the authenticity of the painting? Probably, but that would mean half the pictures in the world have to be re-labelled. So it has become an accepted custom. Same here, if you use reclaimed mahogany from before 1900 it is likely to be Cuban. Then a professional looks at it and checks the colour and grain is consistent with that assumption. If it all adds up then it's Cuban. But sure, there is a small chance it isn't Cuban, just like there is a small chance it isn't a Van Gogh.
dancephoto
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I live in an area where there are a great many people of Cuban decent whose families arrived here prior to the Revolution, when travel and trade were unrestricted. If one of these people has a mahogany table that was made in Cuba by their grandfather and brought here 75 years ago, is it Cuban mahogany? What if the wood was salvaged from a boat or piece of furniture from somewhere else?
How would you like to see an instrument made from this table described?
sequoia
Well-known member
One word: Cuban mahogany. Why? Because that was what was most plentiful at the time.
Graham Greenbag
Well-known member
The seller makes an informed judgement call. In the case of Ken I suspect that he goes to a lot of trouble to get select pieces of wood because he knows that that wood will also up his sale price … but I could be wrong.
As for the material identification: If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
E.Z.
Well-known member
Everything with respect to musical instruments is subjective. Sound, color, feel, etc. What isn't in question is that prior to 1946, it WAS the mahogany of choice for fine cabinet making, and the better musical instruments. I'm not a luthier or a cabinet maker but I'm willing to bet that it had to do with it's physical and sonic properties. It's not like Honduras and Mexican mahogany (the closest varieties considered true mahoganies), weren't widely available at the time. And of course, the fact that it is rare makes it more desirable, and thus command higher prices.
Here is an article on the wood: cuban-mahogany-king-woods-dead-long-live-king
Pegasus Guitars
Well-known member
That would not work. I live on the Big Island (Hawaii) and Cuban grows great here, as well as many other mahoganies. Heavy, dense wood and really beautiful when it is curly.
Yeah, one of the prettiest ukes I've ever seen is an I'iwi custom from Oahu's Charlie Fukuba, made with Hawaii-grown Cuban mahogany and bearclaw spruce, plus Charlie's classic extras. Don't know which island, but clever pun notwithstanding, anything that creates more questions is maybe moving in the wrong direction.
Lots more here.
sequoia
Well-known member
That is some serious bling there.
hank7444
Member
My latest find ...A Victorian oval table top approx: 1.5 M x 1 M x 22 mm thick ... Made up of two full width boards.
All I have to do is try and find some sopranos hidden within.
D49A6D53-C026-45E1-9E6B-1A139CA4481D by Ken Timms,
I can't wait to get one soprano made by this table!
DuckyI
Well-known member
Well, by this point it feels a bit disingenuous. You are questioning Ken's judgement, whether you mean to or not. All we have to ascertain whether it's Cuban mahogany is the following:
- the accepted history of mahogany logging and export (well documented)
- the dating of the table in question as Victorian (generally very reliable in antique furniture)
- the informed judgement of a highly experienced carpenter and the world's foremost luthier of Martin replica sopranos.
You're free to ignore this weight of evidence and experience under the guise of it not being 100% proof, but it should be obvious why people would accept it.
For what it's worth, I have one of Ken's Honduran sopranos and it's a belter, so this may all be immaterial if it's sound one is after.
