Soprano Intonation

[John Colter]

What did he say?

 

[SweetWaterBlue]

As i believe that this Soprano in question is one made by myself i believe i can put in some input.
these sopranos are a close replica as i can produce of a Martin Style 0 that was manufactured in the 1930 -1950 era.
I have four origionals of these, ranging from 1926 to 1960 these are where i get the dimensions from, aided by the excellent plans made by Scott Antes. As the bridges and saddles are the slot type they have a saddle that is only 1/16 of an inch wide, so there is no room to compensate the saddle as it is far too narrow ...other builders fit sadles that are more wide at 1/8"-3/16" and can shape them to achieve better intonation ( as the modern Martins do) I could also do this but then they wouldnt be accurate original copies...as an experiment I took out my favourite Martin soprano from its case, it is the 1926 one fitted with bar frets... I had strung it with fluorcarbon fishing line leaders same as the soprano in question.
The A string is 30LB ..E string 50LB ..C string 80LB and G string 40LB.
I then downloaded the most accurate free electronic tuner i could find on the web and proceeded this test.
First the A string open then at the 12th fret result just over a semitone sharp.
then the E string this was almost spot on maybe a little sharp.
next the C string also a little sharp
Then the G string, this was approx: about a quarter tone sharp.
interesting results.
As the 30Lb A string was the worst I then replaced it with the 40Lb string and tuned it in ..Result it improved it a lot being only a quarter tone out same as the G string.
So there it is ..I never claimed that these instuments i make are special in anyway ... that is down to to players who have given them excellent reviews... if you require a soprano with better/perfect intonation then look for one with a broad compensated saddle not a vintage Martin Style 0.😉

Interesting information, Ken. I've never ponied up the cash for a real Martin, but have owned several of the Ohana SK line (22 up to the 38). Ohana seems to indicate they tried to make them reasonably modern copies of the Martins as you did. Your experiment probably explains why I have never been able to get one to intonate at less than 25-50 cents off all the way up the neck. It doesn't bother me when I strum chords below fret 5, but drives me crazy when I want to pick melodies.

I've fooled with setting the action on these copies as low as I could at the nut or shaving a bit off the saddle, which improves some of them. A few have had misplaced bridges, which for some reason are usually set too close to the neck by a 1/16" to 1/8" distance, which requires more surgery.

In my latest adventure, I wanted to put an under-saddle pickup in an SK model to play it onstage in my band. Unfortunately the 1/16" saddle slot was not only too narrow to compensate, but also not wide enough for any pickup elements I found online. I ended up just installing one of those round piezo soundboard elements in front of the bridge instead. Sounds good anyway. The bridge on that particular instrument appeared either badly glued down, or perhaps not flat on the bottom which gives it a slight saddle lean towards the fretboard. Undoubtedly that also makes the intonation off a bit. I thought about just popping the bridge of an making a more substantial one that could hold an off-the-shelf under saddle pickup. It would not be accurate to the Martin but would solve several of these problems. I don't care that much about historical accuracy on these relatively cheap instruments, so I may just throw caution to the winds and make a bridge and saddle that can be adequately compensated.

Thanks for taking the time to post your experiment.

 

[Graham Greenbag]

FWIW, I've just tested (all strings, all frets) my Timms style 0 (Aquila strings) using two different electronic tuners and it is impressively accurate. Nowhere was it out by more than 10cents. Then I tried my 1950-ish Martin style 1 (Worth brown medium) which gave very similar results. Both ukes play well and sound great.

There is such a thing as good enough.

Agreed: There is such a thing as good enough. And to my mind your results above are perfectly good enough.

I think that you raise another good point too: your tests used ‘proper’ strings rather than fishing line. Of course I accept that fishing line can work well enough for some people but if I had a £600 Uke then even I would fit ‘proper’ strings to it rather than cheap out with fishing line. These are alien words to me and a hard lesson in life: there’s such a thing as being too mean.

Just out of interest, please, how much compensation is there on each of those two instruments?

 

[Oldscruggsfan]

@Graham Greenbag - Your comment of, "buying any cheap and cheerful Soprano is almost always an exercise in putting things right but you’re rewarded with: a better playing instrument, a sense of achievement and an improved skill set that can be usefully used on better instruments. Education is a wonderful thing and particularly so when applied to one’s interests" precisely described my experience thus far with the Yowling Ginger Tom DIY. During my decades of owning a 5-string banjo, I tinkered with it far less than I've had to with this uke but I've thoroughly enjoyed the learning experience.

Possibly best of all, that same uke led me to UU, and I also thoroughly enjoy the fun, intelligent and kind folk I've met (albeit electronically) here.

 

[Wiggy]

... If a single note is a little flat or sharp up the neck, then no, I can't hear that without a tuner.
What I do hear is chords being out due to intonation errors. Yes you can make some tuning adjustments for certain chords but then other chords will be out, and a chord that is in tune in the first position will be out of tune in the second/third/fourth position.

If a barred or true 4-fingered chord plays with good harmonization at the 3rd and 5th fret, I am thrilled. Good at the 7th is a bonus.

When they harmonize well they seem to sound louder and "ring" longer.

Chords played at the "open" position are somewhat forgiving, but how I check when tuning is how well the strings play together at the 3rd and 5th.

 

[Seths Cat]

To continue with one of the members comments I purchased a Spongebob ukulele ( dont laugh ) and a Mahalo ukulele both are sopranos and for a total of £25.
As you can imagine they were not good, especially the Spongebob one. I know I have stated I am new to ukuleles but I am not new to guitars ( Classical and steel ) acoustics and have played for over 20 years. I dont wish to come across like I dont know anything at all when it comes to setting up a ukulele, I just apply my guitar knowledge and I know how to set up a guitar.
I am yet to start working on the Mahalo but have finished the Spongebob, this was by far the worst one of the two.
The Spongbob ukulele had the bridge incorrectly placed, the nut was a plastic hollow molded thing which you could drive a bus through at the first fret, the frets were rough and obviously the strings were rubbish.

Once I relocated the bridge correctly and replaced the nut with a new one, filed the fret ends, polished the frets, ( surprising the frets were pretty much level ) full set up and put new Aquila Sugars on it has produced an instrument that now intonates within a few cents from the 1st fret to the 8th on all strings and only goes sharp worst case 10 cents once you get past the 8th fret onwards.

Its amazed me how well its come out, it shouldn't be the case. Strummed it now has a good tone but does lack a little volume but finger picked it sounds really sweet with has great tone.

This exercise wasn't really to achieve a better sounding ukulele ( which it definately did ) but more for my personal confirmation and understanding that even a cheap ukulele which basically is made from fire wood and plastic parts can acheive a high level of intonation given the time spent.

Whilst I was not seeking or expecting perfection I would say this proves the extra time spent to achieve any instruments maximum potential should always be the goal.

 

[Graham Greenbag]

To continue with one of the members comments I purchased a Spongebob ukulele ( dont laugh ) and a Mahalo ukulele both are sopranos and for a total of £25.
As you can imagine they were not good, especially the Spongebob one. I know I have stated I am new to ukuleles but I am not new to guitars ( Classical and steel ) acoustics and have played for over 20 years. I dont wish to come across like I dont know anything at all when it comes to setting up a ukulele, I just apply my guitar knowledge and I know how to set up a guitar.
I am yet to start working on the Mahalo but have finished the Spongebob, this was by far the worst one of the two.
The Spongbob ukulele had the bridge incorrectly placed, the nut was a plastic hollow molded thing which you could drive a bus through at the first fret, the frets were rough and obviously the strings were rubbish.

Once I relocated the bridge correctly and replaced the nut with a new one, filed the fret ends, polished the frets, ( surprising the frets were pretty much level ) full set up and put new Aquila Sugars on it has produced an instrument that now intonates within a few cents from the 1st fret to the 8th on all strings and only goes sharp worst case 10 cents once you get past the 8th fret onwards.

Its amazed me how well its come out, it shouldn't be the case. Strummed it now has a good tone but does lack a little volume but finger picked it sounds really sweet with has great tone.

This exercise wasn't really to achieve a better sounding ukulele ( which it definately did ) but more for my personal confirmation and understanding that even a cheap ukulele which basically is made from fire wood and plastic parts can acheive a high level of intonation given the time spent.

Whilst I was not seeking or expecting perfection I would say this proves the extra time spent to achieve any instruments maximum potential should always be the goal.

I’m so glad that you’ve done all of that and hope that your cheapies give you fun.

Of course your experience and efforts raise some issues concerning more expensive instruments … I have a view but ain’t going further into that minefield.

 

[anthonyg]

This exercise wasn't really to achieve a better sounding ukulele ( which it definately did ) but more for my personal confirmation and understanding that even a cheap ukulele which basically is made from fire wood and plastic parts can acheive a high level of intonation given the time spent.

Whilst I was not seeking or expecting perfection I would say this proves the extra time spent to achieve any instruments maximum potential should always be the goal.

Ken has explained his position in this thread, so you should read it all.
Ken is making replica's of vintage Martins, not modern Martins. If a vintage Martin was made a certain way, then that is how Ken does it. The modern Martins may well have better intonation, yet Ken isn't building replica's of modern Martins.

Others have given good advice too. Try different strings, specifically, try thinner strings to stop the intonation going sharp.
You really should know that once an instrument has great intonation, you are bound to keep using the same strings or the intonation will change.
Intonation is VERY string dependent.

 

[Graham Greenbag]

Ken has explained his position in this thread, so you should read it all.
Ken is making replica's of vintage Martins, not modern Martins. If a vintage Martin was made a certain way, then that is how Ken does it. The modern Martins may well have better intonation, yet Ken isn't building replica's of modern Martins.

Others have given good advice too. Try different strings, specifically, try thinner strings to stop the intonation going sharp.
You really should know that once an instrument has great intonation, you are bound to keep using the same strings or the intonation will change.
Intonation is VERY string dependent.

To be fair Seth didn’t point a finger at anyone in his post above - no one was named.

If someone sells a very expensive instrument at auction then by their final bid the buyer - and not the seller - sets the sale price.

If someone bids and buys something expensive based on its good reputation and the item fails to meet that reputation then annoyance is understandable.

Many vintage Martins do play very well and they are sought after instruments.

It seems strange to me that any sane person would argue that someone buying an expensive historic replica to use - they are sold as instruments to use and not as wall hangers - should not expect it to arrive working as well as it reasonably could do.

 

[anthonyg]

To be fair Seth didn’t point a finger at anyone in his post above - no one was named.

Ken named himself in this thread.
If people want to follow this thread then they should be reading the whole thing from start to finnish.
There have been numerous posts from people who have fixed their intonation concerns with different/thinner/more flexible strings.
Vintage instruments have very narrow saddles so very little room for intonation adjustments at the saddle.

 

[Seths Cat]

My previous comments posted were only to post my findings and to prove to myself that time spent fine tuning and a good setup using an inexpensive made in China ukulele as a sample test piece resulted in a vastly improved intonation and with this particular instrument the intonation I would say is as good as any soprano I have compared it to.

The point I am making is yes a tenor and concert by default will be better intonated across the fretboard than a smaller scale Soprano ( I am sure there are instances where this is not the case obviously ) but this would be the case generally.

So it seems that it is not a surprise or even a question by ukulele players when purchasing any Soprano ukuleles that its intonation could be better, it's just accepted as that's what all sopranos are like.

 

[Graham Greenbag]

My previous comments posted were only to post my findings and to prove to myself that time spent fine tuning and a good setup using an inexpensive made in China ukulele as a sample test piece resulted in a vastly improved intonation and with this particular instrument the intonation I would say is as good as any soprano I have compared it to.

So it seems that it is not a surprise or even a question by ukulele players when purchasing any Soprano ukuleles that its intonation could be better, it's just accepted as that's what all sopranos are like.

As far as I’m concerned it’s been interesting to read of your findings. Your findings were pretty much as I expected they would be, but it’s nice to have one’s own experience independently replicated. I hope to hear how you get on with sorting the Mahalo, and who knows what else after that - or maybe you’re due …

Some Uke players are sold various lies including Sopranos can’t <insert term here> , some are also sold lies on other sizes too - too often it’s basically whatever the seller can get away with. With a bit of care, wit and skill it’s quite amazing what Sopranos can do: see videos of Sam Muir and Wilfred Welti whose Sopranos play beautifully for them. I guess that they excepted no excuses.

 

[anthonyg]

I'm as fussy as anyone, when it comes to intonation, yet I also know that intonation comes down to VERY fine details.
I have already asked the OP to give us some fine details on what's going on with the intonation on his instrument of concern, and he refused.
From that point, my attitude changed.
In the electric guitar world, they have just as many issues with intonation, even though they have long scale lengths and easily adjustable saddles.
Acoustic guitars with their non adjustable saddles have just as many intonation problems as ukuleles do.

Guitars with perfect intonation are just as much of a myth as ukuleles with perfect intonation.
If the OP want's help from us here, we NEED specific and accurate numbers. Otherwise anything anyone say's is a guess, and we all need to stop guessing.

Excellent advice has already been offered. Intonation is STRING specific. If you can't adjust the intonation to match the strings, then you change the strings to match the intonation.

Try thinner, more flexible strings.

 

[Seths Cat]

Just for the record thanks for all your input and comments its much appreciated and with my own independent findings I now have what I need.

 

[Seths Cat]

anthonyg
Regarding your comment I 'refused' to provide you with the finer details is not the case. The day you made the request was my first day of many working away so could not do it. Dont wish to be picky but using the word refused isn't quite the case.

I could talk plenty about you comments regarding intonation on electric and acoustic guitars but dont wish to bore the other members as it is a ukulele forum.

Thanks

 

[anthonyg]

anthonyg
Regarding your comment I 'refused' to provide you with the finer details is not the case. The day you made the request was my first day of many working away so could not do it. Dont wish to be picky but using the word refused isn't quite the case.

I could talk plenty about you comments regarding intonation on electric and acoustic guitars but dont wish to bore the other members as it is a ukulele forum.

Thanks

You didn't need to respond on the first day. There have been many day's since that you could have responded.
I'm a man of Science. The first step of the Scientific method is, "Observe".
So, we are going nowhere without accurate observations.
I'm as nerdy a geek as anyone when it comes to issues such as intonation, and I do break out vernier callipers and files to work on my own instruments, so I know of what I speak from first hand experience.

I'm not going along with what anyone else believes to be true, without accurate details.

 

[Graham Greenbag]

As of today I am working away for a week unfortunately, so will not be able to do anything.
I do intend to ask the builder for advice though.
👍

Just to remind people of this post.

Everyone loves the builder concerned, but let’s just accept that sometimes even the best craftsmen make an error or two. Seth’s been pretty good about posting constructively and hasn’t been unreasonable.

 

[anthonyg]

Just to remind people of this post.

Everyone loves the builder concerned, but let’s just accept that sometimes even the best craftsmen make an error or two. Seth’s been pretty good about posting constructively and hasn’t been unreasonable.

I don't want to be an ass, and if no one else replied I was going to drop it, yet, what has kind of pissed me off, hence my somewhat angry response is, that Ken responded to this thread himself and Seth ignored him.
Ken did some experimenting himself in response to Seth's complaints and proposed a solution. Ken and I would really like to know if this was the same issue as on Seth's instrument, yet, no reply.
Lack of response to Ken, let alone myself, has fuelled my somewhat angry responses.
My apologies.

 

[Seths Cat]

No problem I will move on from this particular post and call it closed, there is more to be said but I will keep my experiences and thoughts to myself so not to offend.

On another note I have ordered two Stewmac build kits a soprano and tenor.
So anyone completed one put a post up as I would be interested in your experiences.

 

[John Colter]

On another note I have ordered two Stewmac build kits a soprano and tenor.
So anyone completed one put a post up as I would be interested in your experiences.

I have extensive experience of the Stew Mac soprano kits and can recommend them unreservedly. It was more than ten years ago, but the kits still look very similar to the ones I made. You will learn a lot from building one.

Pay particular attention to getting the neck position and angle right. Enjoy!