Tuning 'ukes in fifths

[k0k0peli]

I've recently mentioned and discussed some 5ths tunings. Here are some of my thoughts thereon, if anyone cares.

I've been playing guitar for 50 years and noodling at mandos for 30 years; I am much more of a guitar-chord guy. I love playing melodies on mandolin but have a hard time with chords because my hands ain't small, and mandolin necks are narrow. I've explored options. I restrung a fretted Cumbus o'ud in 5ths as a sort of banjo-cittern, and I recently bought a mandola. WIth both, the chord forms make my hands stretch more than comfortable, maybe because the necks are about 1.5in / 38mm wide at the nut. (Guitars are only a bit wider.) What to do?

My mandolin necks are about 1in / 25mm wide. My soprano 'ukes' necks are about 1.25in / 32mm wide, a nice comfortable size for me. (My concert is 35mm.) Sopranos and mandolins are both around 14-inch scale length. Put those together, and Voila! I restrung a soprano with the Aquila 30U Soprano Fifths set. (They also have the 31U Concert Fifths set available.) After those Nylguts stretched a while they played nicely but I don't know how long the thin top and wound bottom strings will last.

Member SteveZ had a solution: use 20-pound test fishline for the top string and re-purpose a standard GCEA low-G set with the G and C reversed and the E detuned to D. This gives a re-entrant mando tuning. I took that idea one step beyond, heh heh. Yesterday, on another soprano, I just reversed its strings! I set them to a#-F-C-G (brighter than a-E-B-F#) for a re-entrant tuning that lets me play mando chord forms with a truly 'uke sound. That tuning makes for weird fingerpicking but nice strumming, sort of like my Kala 6-string tenor with octave-doubled 1st and 3rd courses.

The effect? The uke with the Aquila Fifths set is like fingering a quiet, easily-handled mando. It's great for practicing melodic playing. The uke with the reversed strings is quite strummable with easily-formed mando chords. It's great for working on the mando chord forms I've neglected for so long. They both work for me.

Besides SteveZ, who all else here uses 5ths stringings?

 

[kypfer]

The uke with the Aquila Fifths set is like fingering a quiet, easily-handled mando. It's great for practicing melodic playing. ......

Besides SteveZ, who all else here uses 5ths stringings?

I keep Aquila Fifths on my Mahalo "pineapple". It's my "goto" instrument when I'm learning a new tune or repeatedly practicing a tricky phrase or passage. The extra body volume (capacity, not necessarily loudness) gives a more evenly balanced tone across the range than a "conventional" soprano, IMO. The tone is still mellow enough for the cat to sleep on my lap when I'm playing it, something she won't do with a mandolin

I also purchased a Brunswick baritone specifically for setting up with 5th's tuning. For me, it's a cheap substitute for the short-scale tenor banjo I quite fancy, but can't really justify the price of. It's a octave below the Mahalo, also GDAE, so, apart from the lowest three semitones, has the range of a conventional six-string guitar, but is significantly lighter in weight. The stringing for that includes three strings from a "conventional" DGBE set plus a guitar bass "E" string for the low G.

It's just occurred to me, I suppose one could use a "re-arranged" conventional DGBE set for re-entrant GDAE tuning, or indeed a re-arranged GCEA (low-G) for re-entrant cGDA (viola tuning). Slightly limited acoustic range for melodies, not that I use the bass string very often, but a "different" strumming sound might be attractive

Could be an excuse for another instrument :music:

As always ... YMMV!

 

[SteveZ]

The Low-GCEA to reentrant CGDA trick is a "3/4ths fifths" tuning, but does allow the full use of fifths chords. In addition, the strings stay within the uke's designed tonal range, so those wanting to kepp a "uke sound" still have it. always found fifths chords easier to play, esoecially for fast shifts (but that's probably just me).

I'll never claim to ever be more than a mediocre amateur musician. As another 5-decade guitarist, I went mando a while ago and found fifths as easy to do and very logical. That got me to tenor guitar, then tenor banjo and finally ukulele. My first uke experience was taking a RISA soprano stick, tuning it GDAE and using it as a travel mando. Aquila sells a soprano GDAE set and a CGDA set good for concert and tenor. Baritone uke CGDA requires some string gauge knowledge, and my baritone is tuned CGDA just like my tenor guitar (makes jumping from one to the other very smooth).

I am awed by folk who can jump from one type of instrument to another, all tuned differently and using different chord formulas, and playing the instruments flawlessly. Try as I have, I just can't do it comfortably and the concentration level necssary to be even marginally accurate took the fun factor away. So, have found ways to tune everything in fifths while still keeping the "instrument-unique" sound.

Some neat stuff has happened along the way. There are a lot of songs with mando tabs, and while I mainly chord and freestyle pick, a uke in fifths can be a fun way to do mando runs. Also, there's a bunch of tenor banjo music out there (Swing, Irish Traditional, etc.) which make for fun play on banjo ukes tuned CGDA or GDAE. Again, the "instrument unique" sound is kept, but the repertoire is expanded. The times I jam with others and bring a uke-type/scale instrument I'm often the only one and the others are 'armed" with a variety of axes, and if there is any paper to follow, odds are that some of it will be in fifths.

Am not trying to convert anyone to fifths. Am just saying that if one is comfortable with fifths, then tuning ukes (especially banjo ukes) to fifths is not musical heresy. It's just adapting the instrument to the human rather than the other way around.

 

[ukulelekarcsi]

George Hinchliffe of the UOGB uses the tuning a lot as well, for lead parts. Mind you, he can play any tuning.

Personally I tried it, and still think a mandolin tuning fits a mandolin best - shrill, jangling notes, shimmering chord 'stabs'. It just doesn't cut it on a nylon string, single course instrument as much, unless you play along with other ukuleles.

 

[Fleacia]

Is the Aquila concert 5th set designed for tenor guitar-like CGDA tuning - C3G3D4A3? I'm not a fan of how Aquilas feel, but will try these if this can be done.

I had a mandolin once and want a tenor guitar. I can have neither at the moment, so this is my attempt at substitution.

 

[Down Up Dick]

Does one hafta learn all new chords positions, or is this just for fingerpicking? ld:

 

[Fleacia]

Does one hafta learn all new chords positions, or is this just for fingerpicking? ld:

Yes, chords in this tuning are different shapes than uke chords.

 

[SteveZ]

Is the Aquila concert 5th set designed for tenor guitar-like CGDA tuning - C3G3D4A3? I'm not a fan of how Aquilas feel, but will try these if this can be done.

I had a mandolin once and want a tenor guitar. I can have neither at the moment, so this is my attempt at substitution.

The Aquila Concert (good on tenor, too) CGDA is C3-G3-D4-A4 (tenor guitar/banjo, mandola tuning). That's my go-to package.

Regarding mandolin (GDAE) tuning on a uke, have tried it on ukes and am not a fan. The E5 is just too screechy to me on ukes, and it must have something to do with the design. CGDA seems to match a uke with ease.

 

[CeeJay]

I've been following the discussions about tuning ukes to "mando" tuning and it made me get my mandolins out again .

I have never played it in front of other people before.

So I just took it to a uke band night last night .....I think it went okay , so did the other ukers ,guit and banjo player ....I think my love affair with the Uke may be waning......hmmm.

 

[pbagley]

I strung up a Kala Traveler concert with an Aquila fifths set for my wife. She is a fiddle player and found the re-entrant ukulele tuning confusing. She likes the intervals and is able to sight read from the yellow and blue books at the Ukulele jams we attend. I've always thought that our concert size Traveler sounded a bit like a ukulele impersonating a mandolin.

But... She would like a string set tuned the same as violin or mandolin, and without a wound low string.
Is there such a set available?

 

[SteveZ]

I strung up a Kala Traveler concert with an Aquila fifths set for my wife. She is a fiddle player and found the re-entrant ukulele tuning confusing. She likes the intervals and is able to sight read from the yellow and blue books at the Ukulele jams we attend. I've always thought that our concert size Traveler sounded a bit like a ukulele impersonating a mandolin.

But... She would like a string set tuned the same as violin or mandolin, and without a wound low string.
Is there such a set available?

Will have to get creative here for GDAE unwound on a concert. There are not a lot of choices for unwound G4. I usually use an Aquila Red unwound low-G. There are others. The headache is the E5, as the Aquila string is mighty thin and snaps easily. That's what caused me to go the 20-pound test fishing line route. I'm sure others can chime in regarding their string ideas to keep the strings from looking like a hodgepodge.

 

[pbagley]

Thanks! I'll have to see what I have around the house in fishing line. I think there was some 10# ... not sure about 20#.

 

[kypfer]

Does one hafta learn all new chords positions, or is this just for fingerpicking? ld:

The chord shapes are different, but most of the "basic" chords, C, D, A, E, G, (and probably a few others) can be played with just two fingers.

Afterthought : I'd better clarify that statement before I get "jumped on" ... I can/do play adjacent strings on the same fret with just one finger, so the chord of E is played 1220 with my index finger on the fourth string and my second finger on the third and second strings. For some quick chord changes, I may not play the full complement of notes, so A can become 2200, which can also double as Am at a push, first and/or second strings can be additionally fretted as time and fingers permit!

I tend to think of things as a new "key" as opposed to the same key on a different instrument. Rather than frightening and/or confusing myself by trying to remember three or four different "key of G" chord sets, I think of it as "Banjo G", or "Guitar G" or "Mandolin G" or whichever, much like I would if I was learning the chord shapes for "B flat minor" on whichever instrument I was playing at the time.

Those chord shapes would then be mentally categorised as "Balalaika B flat minor" or whatever, and only brought into play when I was playing in that key on that instrument ... makes sense to me, but that's how we learnt "chord families" when I was learning guitar ... one set at a time, as needed!

Fifths tuning, in my mind, is much more about playing melodies than strumming. There are a lot more notes available in the first position, especially on the short-scale of the ukulele or mandolin, than there are in "conventional" ukulele tuning, especially re-entrant tuning.

Without any real struggle, after a little initial practice, I am able to play up to the seventh fret on my mandolin without moving my thumb ... that's well over two octaves, plenty enough for almost any tune I've ever wanted to play

Another feature of fifths tuning that I find very useful is that, irrespective of where you start on the fretboard, the scale is in exactly the same place as anywhere else (assuming you don't run out of strings), so playing in that "uncomfortable" key, whilst may be a pain to read with five flats or whatever, is just the same as an "easier" key, just a couple of frets up and maybe a string across!! ... a useful trick if you need it

As always ... YMMV

 

[Fleacia]

The Aquila Concert (good on tenor, too) CGDA is C3-G3-D4-A4 (tenor guitar/banjo, mandola tuning). That's my go-to package.

Regarding mandolin (GDAE) tuning on a uke, have tried it on ukes and am not a fan. The E5 is just too screechy to me on ukes, and it must have something to do with the design. CGDA seems to match a uke with ease.

Thanks Steve. I haven't tried mando tuning, but when I've heard it, the E was too screechy for me as well. I will try out the concert set.

I don't want to derail the thread too much... But one reason for the difference could be steel mando vs. nylon or similar uke strings. While a mandolin has a scale length similar to a soprano uke, the strings are steel. I know nothing of the physics of this - that's Southcoast's and others' department! But I know what sounds good to me and hope the Aquila concert 5ths set works out. Those strings will feel better on the fingers than steel strings (not to mention the 2x as many steels on a mandolin!)

 

[SteveZ]

Thanks Steve. I haven't tried mando tuning, but when I've heard it, the E was too screechy for me as well. I will try out the concert set.

I don't want to derail the thread too much... But one reason for the difference could be steel mando vs. nylon or similar uke strings. While a mandolin has a scale length similar to a soprano uke, the strings are steel. I know nothing of the physics of this - that's Southcoast's and others' department! But I know what sounds good to me and hope the Aquila concert 5ths set works out. Those strings will feel better on the fingers than steel strings (not to mention the 2x as many steels on a mandolin!)

E5 is a fairly high string, and the more one moves up the fretboard (to E6 or beyond) the sound is way up there (to me, anyway). Mandolins are just meant to be that high and fill that spot well. Sometimes some sounds just don't work as well (or should) on other instruments.

 

[Fleacia]

Has anyone tried classical guitar strings for the 5ths tuning? Maybe not on a soprano, but on a concert or tenor?

 

[k0k0peli]

Does one hafta learn all new chords positions, or is this just for fingerpicking? ld:

Ya gotta know (or be willing to learn) mando-style fifths chords. Think of playing guitar bass forms, but backwards.

The headache is the E5, as the Aquila string is mighty thin and snaps easily. That's what caused me to go the 20-pound test fishing line route.

My 175 yard / 160 meter reel of Seaguar Red Label 20-pound test just arrived today. (Via eBay, under US$18 shipped.) I haven't popped the Aquila E5 yet, but I'll be ready when that happens!

Fifths tuning, in my mind, is much more about playing melodies than strumming. There are a lot more notes available in the first position, especially on the short-scale of the ukulele or mandolin, than there are in "conventional" ukulele tuning, especially re-entrant tuning.

For straight / linear fifths tuning, yes. For a re-entrant fifths tuning, not really. As I mentioned in post #1, I just flipped the strings on a soprano 'uke and tuned up to A#-F-C-G. Strummed mando chord forms have a very 'uke sound to them. Melodic picking is nutz. It's rather like right-handed me playing a left-handed guitar. Fun!

With any fixed interval tuning, chord forms are simple, consistent, and easy to move around. But various interval tunings have trade-offs. Larger intervals, like fifths, provide a wider tonal range -- more notes fit onto the fretboard but the chord forms are a bit limited. Smaller intervals, like major thirds, offer very little tonal range but closed chords can be formed all over the place. I keep one guitar in straight thirds -- kinky. My new Puerto Rican cuarto-prima has five courses tuned in straight fourths (BEADG), again with great chord portability, but the forms are a bit strange to my guitar-addled brain.

Zithers are tuned in seconds but I won't go there! Hmmm, wonder how an instrument tuned in sixths or sevenths would play?

 

[CeeJay]

Ummmm why not actually try a mandolin ........oops radical...not popular (that's me, but I don't care ) they sound gorgeous and you will wonder why a clunky uke is what you were playing before (not really ...ukes is great too) but seriously, I get SteveZ s experiments with the differing tunings and we have had this discussion before when another member tried to poopoo trying different tunings.

Seriously the difference is in the strings, metal vs nylon .....


Now if you want to try something a bit rad ...try a Balalalakik......bugger....more to come when the JD wears off..honest .

 

[SteveZ]

Ummmm why not actually try a mandolin ........oops radical...not popular (that's me, but I don't care ) they sound gorgeous and you will wonder why a clunky uke is what you were playing before (not really ...ukes is great too) but seriously, I get SteveZ s experiments with the differing tunings and we have had this discussion before when another member tried to poopoo trying different tunings.

Seriously the difference is in the strings, metal vs nylon .....


Now if you want to try something a bit rad ...try a Balalalakik......bugger....more to come when the JD wears off..honest .

Had over a half-dozen mandos (one left). It's still a challenge handling that narrow neck and tight fretting on 8 steel strings. I can't picture any tuning other than fifths on a mando unless one's fingers are made of elastic.

 

[CeeJay]

Hello Steve...just ignore my ranting ...one is a little ....shall we say, three sheets to the wind ...sorryeeee....