When you can play a D# that’s not an Eb

[greenfrog]

Movable tied-on frets!!!

The 12 notes used in modern music are a compromise so that the same notes can be used in different keys. Most modern western instruments are “equal tempered” based on these 12 not-quite-right notes so they don’t sound too bad in any key.

But it sounds pretty cool when someone with movable frets (in the case on a guitar) can adjust them for the specific key they are playing in.

A ukulele like this is going on my “someday, when I can afford to have UAS” wishlist…

 

[Brian PacNW]

Here's a quick video demo for those who haven't heard the idea of equal temperament being "not quite right." It contrasts the sound of a simple major chord with our usual equal temperament [ note ratios 1 : 2^(4/12) : 2^(7/12) ] to a just intonation [ note ratios 1 : 5/4 : 3/2 ]


Fun stuff! I'm personally never going to play well enough for it to matter, but I enjoy thinking about it.

 

[Arcy]

This true temperament guitar weirds me out


I’ve been noticing more fretless guitars lately. I’m not sure if they’re getting popular or if I’m just noticing them now as I’m working on fretless bass. I think there was a fretless uke by one of the boutique luthiers at HMS a while back.

 

[Canada Jim]

In the keys of E and B, I would assume it to be a D#.
In the keys of Ab and Db, I'd assume it to be an Eb.

 

[Ms Bean]

Bill1 mentions some interesting facts in his post: the ratios for octaves, fifths, fourths, Pythagorean tuning.
A short summary is: if you go round the circle of (perfect) fifths you end up at C again, and you will have covered seven octaves. However, there is a slight discrepancy (of about a quarter of a semitone). Equal temperament distributes this discrepancy over those seven octaves. Perfect fifths are slightly flattened, and then the thirds are adjusted, so that the basic triads sound acceptable.

Brandon Acker posted a video a few weeks ago, where he explains and demonstrates the Pythagorean comma.




Music theory explains why there are flats and sharps, what order they appear in (the order of flats / sharps is one of the first really basic things I had to learn as a child).
I always considered C# as identical to Db, until I got my baroque flute, where some of the enharmonic notes have a different fingering (f.i. Bb and A# in the higher register). The two notes sound different.

 

[CPG]

Better yet, get a fretless instrument.

 

[merlin666]

Better yet, get a fretless instrument.

Many instruments in orchestras such as wind instruments, violins etc don't have fixed intervals. But I wonder if the average string quartet will play a piece in F# any different than a piece in Gb.

 

[CPG]

Many instruments in orchestras such as wind instruments, violins etc don't have fixed intervals. But I wonder if the average string quartet will play a piece in F# any different than a piece in Gb.

I play fretless banjo and I wonder this myself. When you play a fretless instrument you really learn to rely on your ears more than sight or feel. Your ear tells you if you are hitting the correct note. To some extent there will some bit more variation each time you hit the same note, but I do think ones ear would naturally guide you to playing a little closer to "just intonation". I've have heard fiddlers say that that they feel like play closer to just intonation also. I also play a bit of a harmonica and most (though not all) harmonicas are tuned somewhere between equal temperment and and just intonation. I would venture to guess the a good harp player with a good ear would also tend to play closer to "just' than "ET" when bending notes.

I would also think a lot of it would have to do with what other instruments you are playing with. When I play harp or fretless with other instruments or backing music my ear tends to guide me towards playing what sounds in tune to the music I'm hearing. When I play by myself I tend to play notes in a way that they sound in tune with the other notes I'm playing.

I have no idea the extent to which this actually changes where I place my notes, just kinda thinking through hypothetically how it might. I'm only a mediocre player with a mediocre ear anyway so I'm not that consistent anyway. Though I am getting better at letting my ear guide me.

 

[Oldscruggsfan]

In the keys of E and B, I would assume it to be a D#.
In the keys of Ab and Db, I'd assume it to be an Eb.

I mentioned the “A# vs. Bb” subject last night to my adult son, a chemical engineer who very competently plays fiddle, mandolin and guitar by ear. He responded, “Chords are one thing, but there is no such thing as a tune in a flat KEY. Keys are either majors, minors, or sharps”. I didn’t argue the point because I really have no clue. Sort of like bringing a knife to a gun fight, LOL.

 

[ploverwing]

I'm wondering if fretless instruments allow you wiggle room with intonation as you progress down the neck? Like if I theoretically smoothed out all the frets on a cheap uke with crappy intonation and just played by ear to get my fingers where they should be tonally, whether that would work? Sorry that's probably an intensely obvious, very noob question.

 

[Oldscruggsfan]

I'm wondering if fretless instruments allow you wiggle room with intonation as you progress down the neck? Like if I theoretically smoothed out all the frets on a cheap uke with crappy intonation and just played by ear to get my fingers where they should be tonally, whether that would work? Sorry that's probably an intensely obvious, very noob question.

As I understand it, that’s precisely the way it’s done on a violin.

 

[CPG]

I'm wondering if fretless instruments allow you wiggle room with intonation as you progress down the neck? Like if I theoretically smoothed out all the frets on a cheap uke with crappy intonation and just played by ear to get my fingers where they should be tonally, whether that would work? Sorry that's probably an intensely obvious, very noob question.

Yes. You could use your ear to get good intonation BUT chords are very difficult to play with a fretless instrument. Generally, with a fretless instruments you at most hold down two strings at a time (a.ka. double stops).

 

[ploverwing]

Yes. You could use your ear to get good intonation BUT chords are very difficult to play with a fretless instrument. Generally, with a fretless instruments you at most hold down two strings at a time (a.ka. double stops).

Ah yes. Good point. What about fretless banjos, do they tend to do no more than double stops?

 

[necessaryrooster]

Yes. You could use your ear to get good intonation BUT chords are very difficult to play with a fretless instrument. Generally, with a fretless instruments you at most hold down two strings at a time (a.ka. double stops).

What makes chords any more difficult than regular fretting?

 

[ploverwing]

What makes chords any more difficult than regular fretting?

Probably just more practice to land on the right places quickly without the frets as guides, and more likelihood of slightly off notes as a result. So not impossible, just more work.

 

[CPG]

Ah yes. Good point. What about fretless banjos, do they tend to do no more than double stops?

Yes and no. Yes in the sense that you will sometimes play a full chord, but no in the sense that you usually won't play full chords that require more than two strings to be held down. Banjo, especially old-time banjo styles, tend to rely heavily on open tunings so a lot of the chords you would use only useon between 0 and 2 strings being held down anyway.

Though even with that one does still tend to play fewer full chords on fretless. For example, in open G tuning a C chord is played 2012, on my fretless I would generally play it x012 or even just xx12, where as on my fretted I would more often play the full chord with all 4 strings.

 

[CPG]

What makes chords any more difficult than regular fretting?

Probably just more practice to land on the right places quickly without the frets as guides, and more likelihood of slightly off notes as a result. So not impossible, just more work.

Yeah, it just isn't practical to try to intonate 3 or 4 fingers and in some situations it just wouldn't be possible. Think of all the chords you play where your fingers can't all land exactly behind the fret; there is usually some variation regarding where they land in the space between the frets even though the goal is generally to land just behind the fret.

Also, with fiddle you can really only play two strings at once because you are playing with a bow and the bridge is curved. Old-time fiddle players actually play with bridges that are less curved than classical players as they tend to play a lot more double stops and the shallower curve makes that easier.

It's also harder to get a clear tone with a fretless banjo since the string isn't being pushed against a steel fret (especially with a fretless with steal strings which is what I play) so when you try to play more than a one or two fretted strings at a time things just sound out of balance and muddy even if you did have everything perfectly intonated. Fretless banjo is more about combining melody and rhythmic textures than it is about playing chordal harmony.

 

[ploverwing]

Also, with fiddle you can really only play two strings at once because you are playing with a bow and the bridge is curved. Old-time fiddle players actually play with bridges that are less curved than classical players as they tend to play a lot more double stops and the shallower curve makes that easier.

I think the folk fiddle players also have a floppier bow tension than classical, for similar effect?

Thanks @greenfrog for starting this thread. Really interesting stuff!

 

[Ms Bean]

I mentioned the “A# vs. Bb” subject last night to my adult son, a chemical engineer who very competently plays fiddle, mandolin and guitar by ear. He responded, “Chords are one thing, but there is no such thing as a tune in a flat KEY. Keys are either majors, minors, or sharps”. I didn’t argue the point because I really have no clue. Sort of like bringing a knife to a gun fight, LOL.

Of course there are compositions in flat keys. I have arranged a few in Eb for the seasons, and one in Ab.
J S Bach composed two absolute pillars in keyboard music: Das Wolhltemperierte Klavier (books 1 and much later 2). Both of these have preludes and fugues in each of the major and minor keys. Bucket list listening for everyone interested in early music. Check YouTube. There are many excellent interpretations. Pierre Hantai and Ottavio Dantone are on my playlist somewhere.

 

[merlin666]

Of course there are compositions in flat keys. I have arranged a few in Eb for the seasons, and one in Ab.
J S Bach composed two absolute pillars in keyboard music: Das Wolhltemperierte Klavier (books 1 and much later 2). Both of these have preludes and fugues in each of the major and minor keys. Bucket list listening for everyone interested in early music. Check YouTube. There are many excellent interpretations. Pierre Hantai and Ottavio Dantone are on my playlist somewhere.

Yes that came to my mind first when this thread was started. There is some nice summary of this on Wikipedia

The Well-Tempered Clavier - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And also a nice article on the temperaments

Equal temperament - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org