How To Choose Tonewood

[Vic D]

Don't look at me, I'm a noob. So what do you look for in a tone wood? I like poplar (tulip?), but where can I find quartersawn poplar? I'm sure I'll think of more questions to ask as the thread progresses.

 

[fahrner]

About two years ago I had the good fortune to tour the Santa Cruz Guitar Co. here in town. We came upon an area where they were selecting tops from a stack of sticked blanks. Richard picked up one of the blanks and proceeded to rap it with his knuckle, listening to the tone of the wood. He went through several and I was amazed at the different tones even though they were all the same species. When I came home that day I sliced up some Douglas Fur to recreate the phenomena. Amazing. Doug Fur sounds pretty good.
Over the past few weeks I've cut blanks for uke tops out of Mahogany, Sapele and Western Red Cedar. The WRC blows me away. Interestingly again, of the eight or so WRC blanks, two or three sound really phenomenal. Cut a thin slice of Walnut the other day and it to has a very nice ring or chime with nice harmonics and sustain. Will they make good ukuleles? I don't know but some wood is definitely more musical than others. Today I tapped a piece of Wenge I had cut for another project. It's about 4"x10"x .250". It has a ring that sounds just like the Brazilian Rosewood in the video (link attached). I think the bottom line is that you have to look at what is being used successfully (sounds good) and listen to the wood you build with and how it turns out sound wise. So, use the first part of that statement as a guide and the second part as your own development and conviction.
First video from Brad. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY5Fdbf_zsg&playnext_from=TL&videos=KuQCCpcmLfM
This one from Kim Walker.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3JhauyBQ8Y
So Vic; What's it sound like when you tap tulip?

 

[Vic D]

It ( the poplar I've used so far ) has a nice ring to it when thick but not like say walnut... but at the right thickness it's more like a bassy wood block. The one uke I've built from it didn't dissapoint me either... combined with a one piece spruce top I got a nice bassy warm tone with good sustain. Redwood did fool me though, it was much brighter than I expected. Of course it could have been the particular piece of redwood. The stuff was supposed to be air dried for like 50 years or something. Some folks like bright though.
I say I've built one from poplar but I'm in the dungeon now looking at a stack of 6 of them. Gluing blocks and hopefully closing some of them up tommorow.

 

[fahrner]

It ( the poplar I've used so far ) has a nice ring to it when thick but not like say walnut... but at the right thickness it's more like a bassy wood block. The one uke I've built from it didn't dissapoint me either... combined with a one piece spruce top I got a nice bassy warm tone with good sustain. Redwood did fool me though, it was much brighter than I expected. Of course it could have been the particular piece of redwood. The stuff was supposed to be air dried for like 50 years or something. Some folks like bright though.

So many variables. Would think Redwood would sound great. Assume you've tried different strings?
I just went through the shop tapping several pieces of plywood. No surprise there; they all sounded pretty dead.
Wonder what Keefs B&S sounds like when he taps it. Probably pretty good.

Edit; In all fairness to plywood, I've not tapped any of the good stuff like 5 ply shop grade nor the HPL.
Which reminds me of an article from a few years back where a guy made his own archtop guitar tops by laminating three thin pieces of wood, placing it in a male/female mold and parking one wheel of his pick-up camper over the mold while the glue dried. Claimed they sounded pretty good acoustically.

 

[Vic D]

From what I hear, the strings did make a big difference. I bet Keef's B&S sounds like a bell.
There's a book on tap tuning I'ma haff to pick up one of these days... along with Cumpiano's and a couple others. I've watched some videos on the tap tuning deal and I'm convinced.

 

[Dominator]

Cut a thin slice of Walnut the other day and it to has a very nice ring or chime with nice harmonics and sustain.

I don't understand this whole tone tapping thing. I've read a bit about it but still don't understand it in order to use it to my advantage. How does one hold a piece of wood and tap it and determine whether it has nice harmonics? I have not searched Youtube but I would like to see a video demonstration of this tap tone stuff. Anybody know of any existing videos?

 

[Vic D]

This is an excellent video, the one that got me interested. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3JhauyBQ8Y
He uses all the usual suspects in his demonstration, I'd like to hear him talk about... wait for it... wait for it... poplar... and other less used woods.
And then there's this video on top tuning featuring this Benno Streu dude... I found this one very interesting. I'ma watch it again. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajn0TmhvwCU&feature=related
Caution! There are guitars in these videos! Ukuleles are not guitars.

 

[Dominator]

I've watched some videos on the tap tuning deal and I'm convinced.

Hey Vic, we must have been typing at the same time. Got any links for those vids?

 

[Vic D]

Hey Vic, we must have been typing at the same time. Got any links for those vids?

Synchronicity... we did it again... see the links in my previous post. Of course you've probably done that by now. ""It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards". The White Queen - Through The Looking Glass

Melatonin, take me away...

 

[Dominator]

Thanks for the link Vic. Interesting. I had never thought to search YT for info on tap tone.

 

[Pete Howlett]

These are my highly flammable views on this misleading subject. Read with caution!

Tap tone for ukes? Naaah... I even question this for guitars. You don't want it to be woolly and you certainly need it to ring but what is 'tap tone'. I'd defy anyone to define it because it is subjective. From a timber technology point we know that softwoods transmit sound well and hardwoods reflect it. As for the rest - hey I'm just a builder, not a luthier! And BTW, IMHO this sort of guff was invented by boutique builders who wanted to add kudos, premium and mystique to their work. True, violin makers 'tune' the plates on a violin and I think this is where the thinking is derived from but of course, that is an entirely different discussion, different instrument and certainly a different acoustic physics. What those luthiers did who started this whole baloney off was want to charge more for their instruments, plain and simple. Ultimately they invented a pseudo science that has no means of true measurement. Early Martin guitars which are the benchmark for the 'vintage' concept of both look and sound had their wood 'graded' or selected, were essentially hand built/made very cleanly and were not subjected to a poncey idea of what a guitar 'should' sound like. In fact, they were under marketed and sold simply on their quality...

1. All you need to do to check whether or not you have a good spruce top is first to check it's mass against its elasticity - in other words is it light, flexible and strong. Next, drop it from a height of about 12" on it's end to hear it 'ring' - that 'donk' you often hear in horror movies when the protagonist totals the antagonist with a baseball bat... and check the sustain; you do want it to be a 'bell-like' tone.
2. Next, how well balanced are the growth rings - never mind the count, look to see where the hard winters were and the long summers. If the tree grew in an 'uneven' climate this will show in the grain. You can do none if this with hardwoods because the cellular structure is entirely different. For bluegrass guitars you want a 'glassy', 'brittle' tone when you end drop your back plates. For fingerstyle that has to be 'warmer' with more 'sustain'.
3. And if you really want to know what top wood to go for for ukulele it is WRC because it is 'soft' and 'light' and will transmit sound very well but for guitars it is wide grain red spruce - best Martin I ever played a ring count of 5 to the inch and was almost rift sawn...

Now here's a thing: at the weekend I played a very high end guitar from a builder who is now charging over $15,000 per instrument. It was well made but it sucked and for an OM size piece, it lacked power, character and tone. This guy tap tones and tunes his instruments....

 

[SweetWaterBlue]

I found the video from Kim Walker to be especially confusing. He taps all the woods, and they all sound quite a bit different. Some don't seem to have much ring at all to my ears, yet in the end he usually says they will make good tops. What they sounded like when tapped didn't seem to make much difference to him. The video by Brad seemed to indicate he was looking for a wood with a nice ring, but more than that I really couldn't take away from the vid.

I know that ukes with spruce tops I have played and listened to in group sessions are louder (but not as mellow) than say one with mahogany, so clearly the wood makes a difference, but it all seems pretty subjective. I have tapped all my mahogany. Once piece clearly stands above the rest in "bell like ring" quality. Based on what has been said, I suspect it will make the best top.

 

[Matt Clara]

You guys are making this too difficult:


A simple card should suffice.

 

[Michael N.]

I'm not a tap tone enthusiast. The last bit of Walnut I used sounded dull and lifeless when tapped. All I can state is that the resulting sound was nothing like it's tap tone. -thankfully. I also have a few pieces of real junk Spruce that my supplier uses for outer packing. It's full of knots, pitch marks and has serious runout. The stuff rings like a bell.
I also once read a comment by a well known Fiddle restorer who said that when he tapped a Strad top plate it sounded like cardboard.
For Spruce tops I select on weight. My take on it is that light without being floppy is more the ideal.

 

[Ken W]

I'll probably get shot completely out of the water for this reply because I'm going to reference another instrument....but not a guitar, because guitars are not ukuleles. I realize that mountain dulcimers are not ukuleles either, but they are stringed and fretted instruments that get much of their tonal quality from the vibration of their top. Part of the beauty of this instrument is the variety of sounds that you get by making them out of various locally grown woods. I guess that is part of their "folkiness." Those made of cherry and poplar have a bright bell-like tone, walnut is warm and rich, put on a spruce or ceder top and you get lots of sustain...you get the idea. I realize that those building professionally may be uncomfortable straying too far afield from what are considered the traditional woods, but I encourage others who are not building for the market to build and enjoy locally grown wood. Dave G.....I've seen your videos...I know that you get this. Maybe that is how koa became so popular on the Island. It's local and beautiful.

 

[fahrner]

I'll probably get shot completely out of the water for this reply because I'm going to reference another instrument....but not a guitar, because guitars are not ukuleles. I realize that mountain dulcimers are not ukuleles either, but they are stringed and fretted instruments that get much of their tonal quality from the vibration of their top. Part of the beauty of this instrument is the variety of sounds that you get by making them out of various locally grown woods. I guess that is part of their "folkiness." Those made of cherry and poplar have a bright bell-like tone, walnut is warm and rich, put on a spruce or ceder top and you get lots of sustain...you get the idea. I realize that those building professionally may be uncomfortable straying too far afield from what are considered the traditional woods, but I encourage others who are not building for the market to build and enjoy locally grown wood. Dave G.....I've seen your videos...I know that you get this. Maybe that is how koa became so popular on the Island. It's local and beautiful.

Ken, thanks for your post. All you said makes a whole lot of sense and I think you provided some good relevant insight. If you get shot at, I'll stand with you. :~).
I've got a small slab of redwood burl out in the shop someplace. I'm now encouraged to dig it up and see if I got enough for a uke top. Being that its soft and somewhat squirrelly it's probably not a good choice for back and sides.

 

[Moore Bettah Ukuleles]

Ever notice how guys who tap tune NEVER look you in the eye when they attempt to explain what they're doing? Hah! They sound like politicians. I took a workshop recently on tap tuning. Couldn't get one straight or definitive answer. Entertaining show though, lot of smoke and mirrors. Ever buy a paring knife from one of those carnies who are able to carve perfect roses out of radishes?
Perhaps I'm being a but harsh though........
Me? What Pete said in his item #1, followed by deflection testing of the actual plates.

 

[Vic D]

Excellent thread. So far the responses to tap tone have been what I expected and generally mimic the discussions I've gleaned from other sites. A large percentage of builders/luthiers consider the tap tone theories to be rubbish, but then again a lot of folks once considered the earth to be flat. I'm keeping an open mind on the issue and I'll continue to study it. In the meantime, here's a brief exerpt and then a link to an article dealing with the great violin builders.

"Several luthiers (violin makers) have carefully taken apart some of those old instruments made in Cremona, then reproduced to a fraction of a millimeter the instruments’ original dimensions. Yet no one has yet succeeded in perfectly reproducing the sound of a Stradivarius or a Guarnarius. The physicist Félix Savart, back in the eighteenth century, worked on the problem and undertook numerous experiments with parts of Stradivarius instruments. He was convinced that the earlier luthiers, using special tools to tap, could identify the woods that worked best."

http://artsalive.ca/collections/nacmusicbox/en/index.php?pageid=essays/essaygreatviolinsdemystified

Respectfully,
Vic

 

[thistle3585]

I don't tap tune, as defined by Siminoff where he is trying to tune the top or back to a specific note, but I do tap on the back as I carve the braces. I hold it where the neck block attaches and rap on it about where the bridge sits. I fine tune, as in finely carve, the braces and stop when I start to hear a nice ring to it. I distinctly hear it transition from a thud to a ring when I carve the braces. I can't say that it helps but it makes me feel better, and I don't tell people I tap tune instruments.

I think the idea to tap tuning, as well as deflection tuning, is to be able to create a process which allows you to create the same tone from instrument to instrument. Maybe create a "signature tone"? I always got a kick out the tap tuning discussions and specifically am completely befuddled with the chladni tuning. I think a lot of new builders look at tap tuning as a formula that will decrease the learning curve.

I'd never believe anyone that says that have discovered Strads secret because there is only one Strad that hasn't been altered,and its unplayable, so who knows what they actually sounded like.

 

[fahrner]

Ever notice how guys who tap tune NEVER look you in the eye when they attempt to explain what they're doing? Hah! They sound like politicians. I took a workshop recently on tap tuning. Couldn't get one straight or definitive answer. Entertaining show though, lot of smoke and mirrors. Ever buy a paring knife from one of those carnies who are able to carve perfect roses out of radishes?
Perhaps I'm being a but harsh though........
Me? What Pete said in his item #1, followed by deflection testing of the actual plates.

Chuck, it may just sound like I'm nit-picking again. Perhaps it is a bit of my nature but please don't take it personally. Your talking about tap tuning which I think is a bit different than taping wood for tone as part of the selection process. One of the books I read a while back suggested that you tap your wood at each step of the process and listen to the change as the result of what you just did..... added a brace or what ever. It went so far to suggest that you could learn to tune your braces and tone bars using this process. While the article did not tell me precisely what I would hear or even what to listen for, it seemed very plausible and made perfect sense. While it did not give me a precise tangible measurement I ended up thinking it was a skill I could develop over time and with practice. At no time did I feel I was dealing with a shifty eyed car salesman and since I had already bought his book, he had nothing more to gain. When I pick up a piece of wood and rap it, I can hear its musical qualities. That is something that is very tangibly there. As I said earlier I don't know what that means yet. As Pete says, it may not mean anything for a ukulele. Maybe if one just wanted to make loud plunkers it would not matter (I don't mean Pete or you or anyone else here). I gotta think there's something to it.