Is a compensated saddle necessary to get perfect intonation?

Moore Bettah Ukuleles said:
I don't worry about it. I buy pre-compensated strings.
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stevepetergal said:
I now pre-compensate my expectations.
Click to expand...

hahahahah

To the OP
I get intonation within 5 cents at the 12th fret, (open, harmonic and fretted) with a straight saddle slot and a compensated saddle.
So....intonation is good at the 12th, and i let physics be physics everywhere else.
 
Kekani said:
Once I added in a 7 degree angle to the saddle (it doesn't sit at 90, its at 83), I can set intonation, then I can set action without affecting intonation as much as if the saddle were 90 degrees. Still, there is no perfect.
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Why sit it at 83 degrees???

Also, is your break angle one line (i presume in the middle) over the length of the saddle??
 
CeeJay said:
Pssst ...is it it me ?...What the holy hell is a compensated saddle? ...what are we actually talking about here ?
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I'm in the same boat, it appears there is some debate as to if it is just a gilded lily that will make a uke cost more -or something you can do to your saddle that will make notes way up the fretboard more accurate. (it apparently is a bigger deal on other instruments than on ukes)
 
Beau Hannam Ukuleles said:
Why sit it at 83 degrees???

Also, is your break angle one line (i presume in the middle) over the length of the saddle??
Click to expand...

If I recall, I think Rick came up with the actual angle of 7 1/2, but I may be drastically wrong on that one. 7 works for me. Mostly because most of my instruments have pickups, and there was an article written on it years ago, I think it was for Fishman, but I install Baggs. The angle allows very nice compression on the UST, without any tilt. That would be THE reason why I do it. As Paul Okami described a pickup installation I did when he was over - very uneventful.

However, once intonation is set on an instrument without a UST, if it ever came back for one, taking material off the bottom is all it takes. If the action needed to be lowered in the future (like if higher tension strings were installed), lowering the saddle also shortens the scale length at the same time - basically, the top of the saddle doesn't need to be touched.

Break angle remains basically consistent, but because all of mine are low G, the line is closer to the neck on the 1st, and closer to the tail on the 4th. Note: Because of the angle, the neck side of the saddle is cut much steeper than normal, and the back is cut much shallower. MGM posted an image years ago of one of my saddles, but I'm not sure where it went. Again, I didn't create this, I just copied what Rick created.
 
Nope, not those. There's a fairly old one of a close up shot of a Maple Spruce, if I recall. Note: didn't want to do that one, but MGM made me do it. Really? Maple back, sides AND top? In the end, it was fun, and I got to play around a little.

Beau, I just realized one of the reasons I stayed at 7 - it's between 5 and 8 (check your messages) and I took a guess.

I just googled "Guitar Saddle Back Angle" and a few hits down I found this http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95601
And I was wrong about Rick, it is 7 (as he mentions in the thread). That in and of itself makes me stay at 7.

BTW - Chuck and Steve, you guys crack me up. I was compensating fanning my frets (a la Dingwall), but can you imagine the slotting sled for that (no CNC, yet). Oops, I meant contemplating. . .
 
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Kekani said:
Nope, not those. There's a fairly old one of a close up shot of a Myrtle Spruce, if I recall. Note: didn't want to do that one, but MGM made me do it. Really? Maple back, sides AND top? In the end, it was fun, and I got to play around a little.

Beau, I just realized one of the reasons I stayed at 7 - it's between 5 and 8. Don't ask why, but I just googled "Guitar Saddle Back Angle" and a few hits down I found this http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95601

Also, check your messages.
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Wow. That's your build?

The ?inlay? on the side and bottom is really cool (best word I could come up with, makes me sound like a kid, I know). And yes, I'm derailing the thread somewhat.
 
If anyone is still confused, I may add another level of confusion. This won't news to most of you.

I compensate a soprano saddle in two ways, first by placing the entire bridge. I aim for 2 mm extra on my 350 mm scale length on the G, E and A strings. So the distance between nut and 12th fret is 175 mm, and the distance between the 12th and the break point on the saddle is 177 mm. This gets me in the ballpark.

The other way I compensate is I file the saddle so the C-string gets its break point another 1.5 mm back. And this is what I suspect the OP means with the term "compensated saddle", a saddle with some individual compensation for each string (in my case some extra on one of them).

I also angle my saddles back. This gives me a headache when placing the bridge since I have to make the saddle first to get it in the right place. But it looks kind of cool.

Picture here, on my own spruce / rosewood soprano:

blogger-image-1224362031.jpg
 
Kekani said:
If I recall, I think Rick came up with the actual angle of 7 1/2, but I may be drastically wrong on that one. 7 works for me. Mostly because most of my instruments have pickups, and there was an article written on it years ago, I think it was for Fishman, but I install Baggs. The angle allows very nice compression on the UST, without any tilt. That would be THE reason why I do it. As Paul Okami described a pickup installation I did when he was over - very uneventful.

However, once intonation is set on an instrument without a UST, if it ever came back for one, taking material off the bottom is all it takes. If the action needed to be lowered in the future (like if higher tension strings were installed), lowering the saddle also shortens the scale length at the same time - basically, the top of the saddle doesn't need to be touched.

Break angle remains basically consistent, but because all of mine are low G, the line is closer to the neck on the 1st, and closer to the tail on the 4th. Note: Because of the angle, the neck side of the saddle is cut much steeper than normal, and the back is cut much shallower. MGM posted an image years ago of one of my saddles, but I'm not sure where it went. Again, I didn't create this, I just copied what Rick created.
Click to expand...

Oh ok, so your saddle is still at 90 to the top's centerline, but the slot itself is routed with a 7 degree back angle in it.
For some reason i thought you did a 7 degree slot on both the X and Y (or is it X and Z, or Y and Z??).
It all seems very logical and obvious now it is pointed out to me, much like the Earth revolving around the Sun. :)
 
Beau Hannam Ukuleles said:
Oh ok, so your saddle is still at 90 to the top's centerline, but the slot itself is routed with a 7 degree back angle in it.
For some reason i thought you did a 7 degree slot on both the X and Y (or is it X and Z, or Y and Z??).
It all seems very logical and obvious now it is pointed out to me, much like the Earth revolving around the Sun. :)
Click to expand...
actually, the earth revolving around the sun isn't all that obvious and wasn't "discovered " until the 16th century. AND 1 in 4 Americans still don't seem to get it!
http://news.discovery.com/space/ast...ow-earth-orbits-the-sun-yes-really-140214.htm
interesting discussion, thanks
 
strumsilly said:
actually, the earth revolving around the sun isn't all that obvious and wasn't "discovered " until the 16th century. AND 1 in 4 Americans still don't seem to get it!
http://news.discovery.com/space/ast...ow-earth-orbits-the-sun-yes-really-140214.htm
interesting discussion, thanks
Click to expand...

Check out this amazing video on the Earth's rotational orbit around the sun- Being about to 'see' things like this is an ability most people sadly lack.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jHsq36_NTU&list=PLrhU-AowtrRhfdIo8k1Nw86cJyDUFPWV2
 
So should I abandon the idea of asking Kamaka or my local guitar shop if they can switch the saddle on my 1st uke, Soprano White, to a compensated saddle? The saddle's been on this uke for possibly 50 years.
If there is someone who can do this for me, I welcome any recs.
The intonation between open low G & fretting the next whole note, "A" is very, very difficult on my ears. To the point where I seldom play this otherwise great little uke...
.

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Most of my guitars have compensated saddles and none of my ukes have one. They change their level of intonation with the weather. On rainy days intonation can be quite good but on a dry spell intonation can go off more even with humidification. Perfect intonation on solid wood ukes is pure fiction.
 
Watch Andy Powers explanation of V Class bracing. I also don't compensate.

I haven't dredged this thread but John Colter has a really interesting take on this having built a Kobosy using the rule of 18 to fret it. I've played the thing and it plays pretty much in tune. Please chime in John.
 
Hi Pete,

I've never built a uke with the saddle compensated individually for each string. It is possible to achieve good intonation without that. Good enough to make music, anyway. I suppose I must add, IMHO.

The rule of eighteen will put the frets where they need to be. Doubters should try the following. Use 17.812 to work out your fret positions. Move the bridge/saddle away from the twelfth fret by the requisite amount. Using the resulting longer scale length, work out the fret positions using 18 as your divisor. Compare the two sets of fret positions.

John Colter
 
Would be inclined to try for fun on what Kalas are left in the quiver/more "expendable" ukes.
Might do so later on down the road (after dreaded house addition/remodel), so appreciate the links. Gotta look into/think thru any special tools, stuff I'd have to get & see if it's really worth trying for fun. Tips/links welcome.

With this specific soprano, the saddle seems snug as a bug, securely going on it's 5th decade doing it's job. Along w the bridge, it's not an equilibrium that I'd be quick to risk upsetting. If someone wanted to trade a current Kamaka HF1 for this one, there's a good chance I'd decline.

sequoia said:
Go for it... Or you can buy a cheap "compensated" saddle off Amazon for $10 bucks and try it. It might help. Or not. What do you have to lose. Well $10 bucks.

Miwayer Ukulele Real Bone 53mm Bridge Saddle & 35mm Nut for 4 String Ukulele-Compensate (Compensate 2 Set)

https://www.amazon.com/Miwayer-Ukul...ukulele+nut+and+saddle&qid=1616953103&sr=8-16

or here:



https://www.amazon.com/Saddle-Strin...ukulele+nut+and+saddle&qid=1616953103&sr=8-21
Click to expand...
 
Wukulele said:
So should I abandon the idea of asking Kamaka or my local guitar shop if they can switch the saddle on my 1st uke, Soprano White, to a compensated saddle? The saddle's been on this uke for possibly 50 years.
If there is someone who can do this for me, I welcome any recs.
The intonation between open low G & fretting the next whole note, "A" is very, very difficult on my ears. To the point where I seldom play this otherwise great little uke...
.

View attachment 133228

View attachment 133229
Click to expand...

A low G on soprano likely has not enough tension for reasonable intonation to be possible. Your pictures don't show a low G but a very thick C string, maybe get a new set of strings without low G and make sure they are in correct place.
 
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