Intonation flat on one string moving up the fretboard

I've had a similar problem with my Pono 8 string tenor. I appreciate all the tips and plan to try them.
This uke came with an adjustable truss rod but I've never been sure about what it's for, and I'm wondering if adjusting it would have any effect on the problem described above. I am afraid to mess with it without knowing more. Does anyone have any experience with this? Thank you in advance for any info you can provide.

If you don't know how to adjust a truss rod, don't.

Frank Ford's site shows you how.

I would imagine most guys here don't mess with them because they don't have them, except for the guitar guys.

I have a dual action in my bass, love it.

Kekani said:

At least you know the scale is too long, for Worth strings.

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Yeah, as well as for the stock strings it came with. Tag said Aquila, they were two bronze wound basses and two black-ish, floppy trebles. Didn't like the feel and wasn't impressed with the sound. I put on Worth instead because I wanted this Baritone mostly for strumming and prefer having non-wound strings for that purpose. I'll try some different options now.

seasidesal said:

I've had a similar problem with my Pono 8 string tenor. I appreciate all the tips and plan to try them.
This uke came with an adjustable truss rod but I've never been sure about what it's for, and I'm wondering if adjusting it would have any effect on the problem described above. I am afraid to mess with it without knowing more. Does anyone have any experience with this? Thank you in advance for any info you can provide.

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I wouldn't think the truss rod adjustment would do much good. They're basically there to offset neck bow caused by string tension.

Here are the Pono truss-rod instructions from the guy who ought to know. I followed his instructions to a very sweet result on my Pono ATD.

Rakelele said:

Yeah, as well as for the stock strings it came with. Tag said Aquila, they were two bronze wound basses and two black-ish, floppy trebles. Didn't like the feel and wasn't impressed with the sound. I put on Worth instead because I wanted this Baritone mostly for strumming and prefer having non-wound strings for that purpose. I'll try some different options now.

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A few things I want to comment on. Generally, thin strings need less saddle compensation, thick strings need more saddle compensation so given that you have a little too much saddle compensation then thick strings would be better. You should never need negative saddle compensation so the shortest the string contact point needs to be is 20" (508mm) I believe. It would be a good idea to confirm that the scale length of your baritone is 20" but given that its an American instrument I believe that this is the case. If 20"falls over the bridge material then a custom saddle will still be supported by the bridge. You can also adjust intonation at the nut. Carefully filing back the nut contact point to move it further away from the saddle (making the actual scale length longer) will sharpen the intonation.

Importantly, to get the intonation spot on you need to settle on your strings first. Different string sets intonate slightly differently from each other.

And another tip. To really know whats going on when measuring an instrument its best to measure from the 12th fret and check both the saddle AND nut placement from the 12th fret. You NEED to be sure of the scale length that the instrument is FRETTED for though. I suspect you have a little nut compensation that sharpens the intonation but not enough to counter the excess saddle compensation which flattens the intonation.

Regards, Anthony

Anthony, I'm so glad for all your knowledge.

Kanilea website indicates that their Baritone has indeed a 20" scale (=508mm). What I can tell with my simple measuring tape from the end of the nut to the beginning of the saddle, however, is more like 510mm.

Measuring from the 12th fret in both directions, I'd say the way down to the saddle might be a wee bit longer, but only by about 0.5mm. Really hard to tell.

While at the saddle, the scale needs to be shortened in order to sharpen the intonation, at the nut slot it should be lengthened, is that correct?

As for the strings: Like I said, I'd actually prefer a non-wound set, but apparently the regular Worth Brown Baritone strings are too thin to accommodate the specific issues of this particular instrument. Any ideas of another non-wound set with somewhat thicker strings? Or maybe a set with three plain strings and one wound bass?

Rakelele said:

Any ideas of another non-wound set with somewhat thicker strings? Or maybe a set with three plain strings and one wound bass?

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Hmm, Living Water comes to mind for non-wound DGBE. Southcoast has non-wound and one-wound sets but both are listed as GCEA for 20" scale so are going to be thinner.

I can't help you with different strings. I like Aquila Nylguts with the 2 wound strings.

Imagine having the ukulele on a table in front of you, strings up, neck to the left. Moving either of the nut or saddle contact points to the left will sharpen the intonation, moving either of the nut or saddle contact points to the right will flatten the intonation.

A better way of thinking about it. The greater the length of string at a given tension the lower the pitch, the shorter the length of string at a given tension the higher the pitch. Making the distance between the nut and the first fret greater will mean that the string tension will be adjusted slightly to get the open pitch correct and then when you fret at the first fret the interval will be slightly larger, therefore sharpening the intonation on the rest of the frets.

I measure my instruments with a steel rule that has a 600mm scale on one side and a 24" scale on the other side. Using your instrument as an example I would carefully place the 10" mark above the centre of the 12th fret and then see what if any gaps I have at either end of the scale to the zero mark or the 20" mark. I suspect you will have gaps at either end.

Generally I like the nut to be placed spot on where its theoretically supposed to be yet I have ukuleles myself that are actually compensated at both ends of the string and they intonate just fine. There is a little leeway to adjust intonation at the nut but if you go too far you will have intonation that is flat at some frets and sharp at others. There is a little black art going on here. If the worst comes to the worst you will have to fit a new nut. If the 20" mark is over the (EDIT) bridge material I would be working at that end first.

Anthony

Since you asked, and if it were me, I'd try a set of D'Addario Titanium T44 Trebles https://www.stringsbymail.com/class...ra-hard-167/?zenid=4i2ptbq8q8meqfc20mejlpmef4
with a ProArte J4404C wound 4th string
https://www.stringsbymail.com/class...ra-hard-160/?zenid=4i2ptbq8q8meqfc20mejlpmef4
The 44 series are "Extra Hard Tension" on a classical scale. I usually use the 46 series "Hard Tension" on a 17" Tenor scale. Yes, the 4th will be wound.

Truth be told, I actually use Aranjuez when I need a 4th string, only because D'Addario doesn't make a single 48 series anymore (bronze wound). The issue with using the Aranjuez could be balance, as it doesn't come in an "extra high gauge". I like the bronze as its more "transparent" in the transition from wound to unwound, in my opinion.
https://www.stringsbymail.com/class...gold-600-79/?zenid=4i2ptbq8q8meqfc20mejlpmef4

Thanks for your helpful comments, guys. I'll try the D'Addario set and will try to get a hold of a Living Water set as well. I'd rather not touch the bridge before I find out if the problem could be solved with just the strings and/or a different saddle. As a matter of fact, I couldn't do that kind of woodwork, so I guess I'd have to speak with the people at Kanilea to see what they can do.

As far as the bridge could be slight misaligned, you could say that with the nut also. Also the pivot point on the nut just as the saddle. I wouldn't touch the bridge until you figure it out or take it to someone who can pinpoint the issue and go from there. To me there may not be perfect intonation, but you get it as close as you can

I have installed the D'Addario T2 strings that Kekani suggested (using the 1st string of a Tenor set which is even fatter than in the Baritone set). Along with changing the saddle to a straight one and some gentle filing at the nut, this has improved intonation a lot.

Still, I find it odd that some strings meant for a Baritone would set off a pretty regular Baritone by that much...

So this is the end of a successful thread? No, you didn't get to address a potential root cause, but at least you got a playable instrument, right? Glad it all worked out.

Thanks Aaron, I've also contacted Kanile'a to see how they could help. I think I will need a different saddle still, because the one that I have been using to shorten the scale puts the action too low (and besides that, is needed on my other Kanile'a).

Higher action will help your cause, so you're going in the right direction.

I would suggest studying Frank Ford's site, and learn how to make saddles. You may as well, BUT, then you'll redo all of your instruments, make some worse in the process, but eventually end up in a good place. Basically, learn to do setups.

Rakelele said:

Thanks Aaron, I've also contacted Kanile'a to see how they could help. I think I will need a different saddle still, because the one that I have been using to shorten the scale puts the action too low (and besides that, is needed on my other Kanile'a).

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Talk to Kanile'a. Look its not just Kanile'a at fault here. Its an industry wide issue and for better or worse the industry is getting caught out by customers with increasing expectations.

Ukulele's, and classical guitars for that matter have traditionally been made with saddles that are at right angles to the strings. Steel string guitars have slanted saddles.

In the past people have not been THAT fussy about intonation and before the days of cheap electronic tuners most people were none the wiser about intonation. Perpendicular saddles were acceptable. Perpendicular saddles can be positioned so that the treble strings intonate OK and the bass strings go sharp (typical) or positioned so that the bass strings are OK and the treble strings go flat (your case).

To fix the problem, the WHOLE industry needs to move away from perpendicular saddles and create a new solution. Reentrant tuning only complicates the matter.

Anthony

Ok, the folks at Kanile'a suggested that I should use their original strings. They will send me a new set along with a non-compensated saddle and charge me $28 for it.

While I was waiting for their reaction (for almost a month), I made some more experiments and thought that the results might be of interest here:

Out of the three Kanile'a ukes I have at hand, the Concert has a non-compensated saddle that brings the pivot point on all strings as close towards the fretboard as possible. The Tenor and the Baritone have the same compensated saddle, bringing string number two (E on Tenor/B on Baritone) and four (G/D) as close towards the fretboard as on the non-compensated saddle, while string one (A/E) and three (C/G) are set back by about 1.5mm to the middle of the saddle. In other words, these saddles provide more compensation for the 1st and 3rd string. You can see that on the picture in my original post.

My experiment, however, shows that all three instruments have better intonation with the non-compensated saddle (using Worth Clear on the Concert, Fremont Blacklines on the Tenor and D'Addario T2 on the Baritone). This makes me wonder why Kanile'a compensates their saddles the way they do? For re-entrant tuning (which is the way they string up their Sopranos, Concerts and Tenors), wouldn't you expect string four being close in compensation to string one? For linear tuning, on the other hand, especially when using two wound strings (as they do on their Baritones), I would think that you'd have to compensate the thicker of both the wound and unwound strings more, hence setting back string four and two -- which is the exact opposite of their saddles.

Any idea as to why their saddles are compensated this way? I must say that I'm puzzled.

Yes the compensation sounds back to front. If your talking DGBE, then typically the E string has the least compensation, the B string has quite a bit of compensation, the G string because its wound is somewhere in the middle and the D string is compensated long.

Maybe the saddle is on back to front.

Regardless of all this, 2mm minimum compensation (the leading edge of the saddle slot) is still too much minimum compensation.

Anthony

anthonyg said:

Maybe the saddle is on back to front.

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I don't think this is the case. The saddles have been installed this way by the factory on both my Tenor and my Baritone, and you'll see them like this on all pictures of new Kanileas. Just one random example (zooming in at the bridge on the third picture):

http://www.theukulelesite.com/kanilea-k-1-b-hawaiian-koa-baritone.html

If the saddle is turned by 180 degrees, then you'll have the same situation, only worse (I tried): While the "medium" compensation will be placed at 2nd and 4th, strings number 1 and 3 are set back even further away from the fretboard, flattening them even more. Moreover, the break angle on these two strings will be way too sharp.

Really, I don't understand why they use this type of saddle...

anthonyg said:

Regardless of all this, 2mm minimum compensation (the leading edge of the saddle slot) is still too much minimum compensation.

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So would you say that the bridge (or the slot) may have been installed too far off?