Seasonistas general thread: yakking, joshing, news and pictures

A few weeks ago three of us all did Money for Nothing by Dire Straits. Two sang the second verse referencing a faggot with make up and an earring, I elected not to because I didn't feel comfortable signing that line.

Swearing I don't have an issue with but I definitely think that steering clear of racist stereotypes/cultural appropriation as well as misogyny or homophobia is something people should be mindful of. It's not offence for offence sake, it's thinking about how making fun of what makes a particular person themselves might affect someone watching/reading. Calling it PC gone mad is lazy and a denial of the issues it causes in my opinion and it's not that hard to find a song that doesn't do that. I certainly don't think the majority of people here would sing about these sort of things with any sort of malice but there is definitely room to consider it without limiting what you can play.
 
c'mon folks.
deep breaths here.
this seasons board is the tamest thing on the planet.
trying to think of even one song that's ever been played here in 7 years
that is controversial. seriously gang,
reality check time.
take a bex and have a lie down. we're talking for the sake of talking here.
go and play.
 
A few weeks ago three of us all did Money for Nothing by Dire Straits. Two sang the second verse referencing a faggot with make up and an earring, I elected not to because I didn't feel comfortable signing that line.

Swearing I don't have an issue with but I definitely think that steering clear of racist stereotypes/cultural appropriation as well as misogyny or homophobia is something people should be mindful of. It's not offence for offence sake, it's thinking about how making fun of what makes a particular person themselves might affect someone watching/reading. Calling it PC gone mad is lazy and a denial of the issues it causes in my opinion and it's not that hard to find a song that doesn't do that. I certainly don't think the majority of people here would sing about these sort of things with any sort of malice but there is definitely room to consider it without limiting what you can play.

Yeah, and I was one of the people that did it. The song was as mainstream as it comes, and that played on the radio a zillion times with those lyrics. I've been around working stiffs, like the ones portrayed in the song, and that's the way those guys would talk about "eccentric" celebrities, especially back then, but still somewhat now. I don't use the term "faggot" in my every day vocabulary, and in some uses and contexts I absolutely hate it, in others, it's tongue in cheek. I sure didn't do that song to offend anyone here, that I can promise ya, and I don't think anyone was, and that being said, Randy, you've never offended anyone here I am pretty darned sure, certainly not me!
 
I might think some songs are old fashioned, and maybe the lyrics wouldn't get written today, but I don't think I have ever been completely offended by a song here. And if I was - so what? I would still wake up tomorrow. And I would have been offended by the song, not by Randy, or whoever sang it - they are just passing on the message.
(So says the bloke who sang one about putting his pin in your cushion, baby...)
 
Yes - with you on this Ryan - I'm very interested to hear points raised and the consensus of opinion here. It's a topical and relevant discussion, and will hopefully help me to adjust my own self-censorship appropriately and accordingly.

(And Randy - just so you know, you have never caused me any offence - you are a wonderful showman, a great musician and I love what you do! Please don't stop! :) )
 
A few weeks ago three of us all did Money for Nothing by Dire Straits. Two sang the second verse referencing a faggot with make up and an earring, I elected not to because I didn't feel comfortable signing that line.

Interesting. I can see how people might feel uncomfortable with that line because they see it as a dig at a person who dresses like that. If you check the context it's actually a dig at the people who hold such attitudes. The sneering macho man who can't stand people who are different because it makes them feel uncomfortable. I'm quite happy singing that line by seeing it in that light, in fact I did several months ago.
 
You will always get lifes professional victims who will take offence just for the sake of taking offence. You could pick apart every single song ever written and find something offensive about it if you're that way Inclined.
 
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I once read a book called Taboo tunes which looked into why some popular music gets banned.
The main things that gets a tune banned are as follows.


  • If it has a beat then it is jungle music
  • If it promotes drugs or drinking
  • If it has any sexual content
  • If it is satanic
  • If it contains references to death or suicide
  • If it promotes bad language.
  • If it encourages violence.
The one valid point the book makes is the there seems to be a double standard.
There exists a gulf between the pop culture and lets say the classical arts.
The play Romeo and Juliet has underage sex, violent killings, and a double suicide,
yet nobody has ever suggested that it should be banned. Many of the operas
by Verdi or Puccini feature a suicide or two, and Wagner goes in big time for incestuous sex
and gratuitous killing, but because these are considered to be "high art" then they escape
censorship or public scrutiny.
Can it really be true that only popular culture has an evil influence?
 
I think the bigger picture here is the comments we make and how they can be taken.

What is an offensive comment to one person might not be to the next. Some comments can be totally off-putting and the player will laugh and agree while others will have their heart broken over the comment. Sometimes we make a comment and think it is totally innocent until we find out otherwise. I would hope this is a lesson for all of us that when you can see that your comment was hurtful you at least reach out and say you didn't mean any harm.
 
To all, thanks for your thoughts. Very much appreciated. I stayed out of the discussion because, honestly, I was very angry, and you wouldn't like me angry. (Heck I don't like me angry!)

I've come to realize that when some look for, and find, inappropriateness in everything they see, it says much more about them than it does me. I've also come to realize that there are so many wonderful people here, people I love, people who look for the good and the fun and the funny, that I'd be insane to leave this community.

So finally, I want to say that I respect everyone as much as I possibly can. And to the modern-day Cotton Mathers out there who want to impose their exaggerated sense of moral outrage on me - and I'm saying this as politically correctly as I can muster - feel free to kiss my ass.
 
To all, thanks for your thoughts. Very much appreciated. I stayed out of the discussion because, honestly, I was very angry, and you wouldn't like me angry. (Heck I don't like me angry!)

I've come to realize that when some look for, and find, inappropriateness in everything they see, it says much more about them than it does me. I've also come to realize that there are so many wonderful people here, people I love, people who look for the good and the fun and the funny, that I'd be insane to leave this community.

So finally, I want to say that I respect everyone as much as I possibly can. And to the modern-day Cotton Mathers out there who want to impose their exaggerated sense of moral outrage on me - and I'm saying this as politically correctly as I can muster - feel free to kiss my ass.

haha. great post Randy. love you brother.
 
Some of you have put this much more succinctly and better than me, but here’s my two pennorth...
Have missed much of this, but I have since watched the video in question and commented accordingly beneath it. I think as with all these things, there are black, white and many many shades of grey. Funny that you should mention two Lennon songs Randy, Run For Your Life is a particularly awkward one. “I’d rather see you dead little girl than to be with another man.” Is Lennon describing his willingness to kill his partner? Or using extreme language to illustrate how desperate he is if she should leave him, but he wouldn’t actually follow through with the act? Who knows, it’s not as if we can ask him now. But that is what sets Lennon’s Beatles songs apart. There’s an edginess to them, often bordering on, or straying into, fairly unpleasant territory, which you don’t get with Macca’s songs ( no disrespect to Macca, I love his songs equally). Either way, as much as I love Lennon, it’s one of his songs I’ve steered clear of thus far because it makes me uncomfortable. Is it much different to Delilah, which I have sung before? Well to my mind, I think there’s a nastiness in Lennon’s lyric which isn’t present in Delilah. As I’ve said previously, we have a long tradition of Murder Ballads here (See Matty Groves etc). I’m not equating “traditional” with automatically acceptable, otherwise we’d still have bear baiting and other such cruelty, but you have to take each song on its merits, as YOU see them, as per your sensitivities and personal politics, and make your own mind up that is a) very offensive b) not at all offensive c) somewhere in between. Everyone’s idea of what constitutes a, b or c will differ. You know Every Breath You Take is a very popular song, it’s even been used as a wedding song, but the lyrics point to a very unhealthy obsessive love, it’s stalking really. But that hasn’t stopped many people taking it a completely different way. There was a recent furore about the Robin Thicke song Blurred Lines, which was accused of misogyny. Seemed to me it was simply a song about meeting someone, finding them attractive and wanting to have sex with them, which is pretty much the bedrock of Rock and Roll. You can find offence in almost anything these days if you’ve a mind to find it. The Chiffons, “He’s so fine, I’m gonna make him mine”. Well what if he doesn’t want you to make him yours? Isn’t there something vaguely menacing about that point of view.? Well I guess there is if you look hard enough. There are people who seem to be professional offence takers, and at the other end of the scale you have the “It’s PC gone mad!” camp. In between there are the rest of us, trying to make sense of it all. Trying not to be deliberately offensive, but having the capacity to make our own judgements. Sometimes we’ll get it wrong, sometimes right. I don’t think there is any need for a PC censor. I think we all have the capacity to consider who we are singing too, and to know that a song that might be harmless in one context, wouldn’t be in another. Interestingly, our uke group plays both Delilah and Running Bear, plus another interesting one you didn’t mention, She Wears Red Feathers, regularly to groups, none of whom have ever raised any objection. I think this is partly down to the age profile of our audience, who have a fondness for these songs and remember them from the charts when they were younger. We don’t tend play Bad Moon Rising when we sing in hospice settings because of the line “Hope you are quite prepared to die.” We are quite capable of censoring ourselves.
 
As there is always someone who can take offense of anything, you can't avoid completely stepping on some peoples toes.

You can try to be aware of what will offend the exact audience you are addressing, trying not to offend them too much in general. But if you have a wide audience on the internet, it is not possible to suit everyone. And you can't just keep shutting up and having no fun as the only way to be safe.

That being said, offending people just to prove your freedom of speech is not very wholesome either. Sometimes you see a few people who complain about political correctness, just as an excuse to be a-holes.

"Political Correctness" is a dangerous expression. You rarely hear people say they like political correctness, but often you hear people say they don't like it. Because per definition it is a term you use about "going too far" to avoid offending people, or at least changing customs to avoid it. And nobody will say that they like "too much" of something. But not being offensive is not bad in it self.

The important thing is to avoid that people sometimes happen to be offended by what other people say in good intention. The important thing is to be civil about it from both sides when it inevitably happens.
 
Some of you have put this much more succinctly and better than me, but here’s my two pennorth...

Wow, terrific observations. I once read a McCartney interview where Paul said that John took the line "I'd rather see you dead little girl than to be with another man" from some obscure old blues song. That sounds like Lennon, he loved exploring the sound and texture of words, and liked bringing things to the edge. Even tough I won't play that song except as an example of an extreme song, I have no doubt that Lennon was not advocating murder.

Your Chiffons reference is perfect. I believe that if we're looking for evil intent in a song, we're gonna find it. It's more about us than the song in most cases.
 
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