Notation vs. Tabs debate

Based on comments in this thread and from some friends I've decided I AM going to try and get back to reading standard notation. I remember most of the timing stuff, it's figuring out the notes from EGBDF and FACE that bogs me down. So as a first step I'm penciling in the name of the note below the staff and find I'm able to play at a reasonable speed. I DO know where the notes are on the fret board from practicing scales (well the C scale anyway).

Baby steps but I welcome the challenge and know there's a wealth of material out there in notation.

YMMV

Good luck. I am doing something similar.
 
I only play/learn from tabs. I can't read music, well a little, I sight read music to play my piano. One day I'll figure out how to sight read for the uke.
Play by ear? Forget it, I barely know what chord I'm hearing. No musical ear.
I don't mind, it's still fun.
 
Tabs, written properly, show timing and rests and dynamics just as well as standard notation. The advent of computers made it more difficult for people to show the timing and rests. . ., so folks got lazy and showed only where to put your fingers and not when to put them there, but poorly written music is just as bad as poorly written tablature.

There are a couple of drawbacks to tablature.
One is that tab is instrument specific. A tab written for ukulele cannot be easily played by a banjo, guitar, mandolin or trumpet player. Standard notation does not have this limitation.
Another is that there are hundreds of books of fiddle tunes and other songs written in standard notation that are not available in instrument specific tabs.

An advantage to tab is that it is much easier to read than standard notation. Students of the ukulele or other fretted instrument can play simple tunes on the first day of reading tab, while standard notation is much harder to learn.
Another advantage to tab, that has been mentioned above in this thread, is that it shows you how to obtain a given note. The same A can be played on an open 1st string, the 5th fret of the 2nd string, the 9th fret of the 3rd string or the 2nd fret of the 4th string. Which one you choose will affect the ease of playing the next or preceding notes in a given passage.

I have learned songs/tunes from tab, standard notation and from records, videos or watching others and it's nice to have a choice.

Hear hear!!

Tab as published by Aaron Keim, Jamie Holding, Barry Sholder (and no doubt many others) has all the timing etc. details needed to perform a tune on a ukulele.

Unfortunately there would also appear to be a wealth of "tabbed-out" music available that is little more than a list of finger placements ... fine, if you already are familiar with the tune. The arrangements that show a conventional notation with a row of finger-placements underneath was one of the reasons I learnt to read conventional notation for the ukulele ... I found it easier than trying to read effectively two lines of music, one for the timing and one for the fingering !!

YMMV ;)
 
Based on comments in this thread and from some friends I've decided I AM going to try and get back to reading standard notation. I remember most of the timing stuff, it's figuring out the notes from EGBDF and FACE that bogs me down. So as a first step I'm penciling in the name of the note below the staff and find I'm able to play at a reasonable speed. I DO know where the notes are on the fret board from practicing scales (well the C scale anyway).

Baby steps but I welcome the challenge and know there's a wealth of material out there in notation.

YMMV

GO FOR IT !!
You'll soon realise that there are several fret positions that are almost never used (in the common or "easy" keys), so your "choice of mistake", for want of a better term, becomes limited ... that is to say it becomes easier to find a "right" note than play a totally wrong one ;)

Work up and down the scale slowly, repeating (mentally, if not out loud) the letter of each note as you go, C D E F etc. Unless you're really unlucky, after a short while, you'll "see" the note names on the fingerboard and your fingers will be able to find them fairly automatically.

Next, find a piece of easy music in C (no sharps or flats), and read each note out loud, try to let your fretting hand find the notes, without looking if possible.

All of a sudden ... you can read music :)

From here on in, it's just practice. Lot's of different easy tunes initially, don't get bogged down repeating the same melody over and over, especially if you keep making the same mistake. Step back, try something different and come back to it later ... next day, next week, whatever, otherwise you effectively risk learning to play mistakes !

Once you're basically happy with the C scale, (which is also used in A minor) find F# (instead of F) and you're in G (or E minor) ... a few days later, find C#, add that to your F# and you've got the key of D. Bb (B flat), instead of B, is used in the key of F ... all of a sudden you've a wealth of repertoire available to you and all you've had to learn is the basic eight notes of the C major scale and three other semi-tones ;)
 
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The arrangements that show a conventional notation with a row of finger-placements underneath was one of the reasons I learnt to read conventional notation for the ukulele ... I found it easier than trying to read effectively two lines of music, one for the timing and one for the fingering !!

This is basically the reason why I haven't really bothered with Tab for the ukulele. Add to that, my main interest is in accompanying my singing and I am happy either strumming or finger picking a chordal accompaniment so it's not really worth the effort for me.

As I said earlier, I could already read conventional notation long before I took up the ukulele and for instrumental playing I mostly go to my other instruments.

As others have said, most ukulele tab is pretty inadequate unless you already know the tune. I appreciate there are a few who do it properly but most don't.

Here's a link to an article on 16th century lute tab which explains some of the principles of tab of that period. Principles which apply today although some of the details are different. There are plenty pictures of lute tab from the period and you can see the flags above the tab which were used to indicate note durations. Some of the examples also show the basic melody in music notation of the period above the tab but that was there for the singer so only includes a melody line. The lute tablature will give the harmonies as well.
 
Before we get too far into the 'I read chicken scratching brand X so I'm more musical' debate, let me remind you that neither tab or notation is music - hold either of them up to your ear and let me know what you hear. A few points:

1. I have some notation which is hand written and which is illegible. Therefore, notation does not provide either rhythm or pitch information, right? You can't take the worst tab available and say tab doesn't provide rhythm info any more than you can use the worst notation available to say what it can do - stop saying that guys, it makes you look dumb. Modern tab is the standard by which tab should be judged. Guys scribbling out numbers and dashes in a text message is not tab, any more than my illegible score is notation.

2. I think notation and tab actually fill different niches. Notation is for people who want to and/or can make their own arrangements, possibly on the fly. Tab is a way to record an arrangement, including fingerings. I have been doing quite a few arrangements lately, everything from converting guitar-flute duets to be uke-flute duets to converting uke stuff for my re-entrant baritone uke. A good example is the guitar-flute duets. These have fingerpicking accompaniment on the guitar - I started off just reading the guitar part and ad-libbing when they went lower than my uke. But eventually, I wanted to work out in detail an alternate part especially for uke and this includes consideration of fingering. So, I made a tab of my final arrangement and that is what I use to play it. Similarly, I have edited numerous uke tabs I have found online to better suit my style. So, IMHO, tab is useful to capture an arrangement, including fingering, in a more defined way than notation.

3. Because of the "Arrangement" concept in tab, I believe tab is better suited for beginners than notation. It resolves the fingering questions and allows them to concentrate on execution.

4. I have worked with more sophisticated tools like Finale, but I find Guitar Pro is a pretty straightforward method to create useful tabs, so that is a pretty accessible tool. Maybe you guys know of a free tool that is good - my point is that there is no reason to have tabs which are numbers and dashes in a text message.

5. So, can't we all just get along. The MOST musical people are those who don't use notation or tab - they just pick up an instrument and create new original music, or maybe they just can play anything they have heard. Fluency in any brand of chicken scratches is definitely a secondary or tertiary component of musicianship outside of the classical genre.

As always, your mileage may vary and you well may disagree.
 
Sopher,

I'll have to disagree with your point 5.

Did you ever hear of the Wrecking Crew? There is an interesting documentary on them. Anyway, they were a group of studio musicians who played on many of the bands records through the 50-80s . They were all proficient at reading music. They could play any style of music.

I believe tabs are harder to read than music notation especially with practice. A tab does not tell you the note so your brain does not associate the number with a note. You only know where to place your fingers. It's like painting by numbers. For example, I see the note C on music notation. I play a C on my instrument. I register in my mind a C note sound.

When I first started learning ukulele, I played a bunch of tabs off the internet. I learned to read tab but it's slower.

Now, I'm playing classical and electric guitar for the last two months. I've only played guitar by musical notation. I've made great strides in my playing. I could not imagine looking at a tab with 6 lines on it and trying to play it.


Musical: I supplement my music reading with the studying of progressions. I plays chords especially when working on Jazz guitar. I use a book by Mickey Baker. It's an excellent book. The hearing of chords and progressions will train your ear. This is something musical notation will not do. Also, transposing songs in different keys trains your ear to hear the notes.


* I agree with your point about musical notation not making you musical. Musical notation has it's purpose because you learn to associate note names with sounds. Tab allows you to show a fingerstyle piece. It's gets a person playing quicker but I think hinders growth later. A person can not pick up a fake book and play a simple melody if they learned tab.

I've always thought Jazz players had a good grasp of music. If you want to play well, you have to learn the instrument. Of course you can learn to play by ear. But most people do not learn this way. That is why learning the progressions and how chords are built will get you up and running much quicker. If you want to learn how chords are built then you need to know the notes on your instrument. Musical notation will help you learn the notes on your instrument.
 
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Lots of interesting thoughts in this thread. Thanks to all, for sharing ideas.

Personally, notation has helped me much more than TAB to develop my understanding of relationships between notes, and relationships among notes in chords. Knowing where to put my fingers---I played bass and guitar for twenty years without ever using notation or tab---helped me get started understanding those relationships, but learning to read musical notation---as a ukulele player curious about Hawaiian music and the box of old song sheets at the thrift store---has given me a much deeper understanding. This has helped me become a better improviser. I've also become much better at hearing notes and relationships by ear---and I'd kind of reached a plateau with that before learning to read music.
 
Justin,

It's interesting that you cite studio musicians. Yes they can read and play anything you hand them. But, they are the embodiment of my #5 - you could say to them - we need a hot guitar solo here, or we need a steamy sax piece here and they could just make it up to fit your song. Many or most of the "hooks" that they add to a song they make up on the spot, they aren't necessarily "reading" their best work off a piece of paper.

FYI, I played guitar for a few decades and if you think you couldn't read a tab with 6 lines, you must be kidding. BTW, I consider that guitar playing IS fingering, and only secondarily related to notes. If the singer needs to take it up a whole step, I just take it up 2 frets and carry on. If I am playing "notes" then I have to do a complicated transposition in my head - not a good idea - a person who can't read tab or notes can be a pretty good guitar player - like Carlos Santana
 
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Funny, all this talk about tabs vs. music. There was another big thread about it a while back, and probably more before that. I decided a few years back to learn to play my instruments by ear, and I've made a lot of progress with my flutes and, before that, with my mouth harps.

I guess I wanted to be like Kung-fu. Remember he usta stop his travels, find a comfortable rock to lean against and play his heart out until the next adventure.

I'd really like to do that with my Ukes and banjo, but I can't seem to connect the tune in my mind to the frets and strings. It really takes me many, many repetitions before I finally memorize a tune, and then I have to start over for the words.

I really like both tabs AND staff notation, but my eyes don't seem to wanna keep track of the tabs and the music and the words any more. I usta could fingerpick from notation, but I couldn't always find music what I wanted, so I learned (more or less) tabs. And, now, I guess tabs are more useful to me on stringed instruments. Banjo books say to learn the tune with tabs, but drop 'em as soon as possible, and that's what I mostly do.

Have a good time and learn everything you need before you grow old. :eek:ld:
 
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Funny, all this talk about tabs vs. music. There was another big thread about it a while back, and probably more before that. I decided a few years back to learn to play my instruments by ear, and I've made a lot of progress with my flutes and, before that, with my mouth harps.

I guess I wanted to be like Kung-fu. Remember he usta stop his travels, find a comfortable rock to lean against and play his heart out until the next adventure.

I'd really like to do that with my Ukes and banjo, but I can't seem to connect the tune in my mind to the frets and strings. It really takes me many, many repetitions before I finally memorize a tune, and then I have to start over for the words.

I really like both tabs AND staff notation, but my eyes don't seem to wanna keep track of the tabs and the music and the words any more. I usta could fingerpick from notation, but I couldn't always find music what I wanted, so I learned (more or less) tabs. And, now, I guess tabs are more useful to me on stringed instruments. Banjo books say to learn the tune with tabs, but drop 'em as soon as possible, and that's what I mostly do.

Have a good time and learn everything you need before you grow old. :eek:ld:

Dick,

I think playing by ear and improvising are the purest forms of music. Some people play because it will impress girls, or because they need a hobby, but real musicians play because they need to express a sound. It may be a sound they heard being made by others and they were so profoundly moved by it that they need to try to reproduce that. Or it may be their own unique sound that they need to express. The ultimate musician sees his instrument, not as tab or notes, but as sounds. He has a sound he desires to make and he knows just how to manipulate the instrument to produce that. At that point tab and notation (and this thread) become irrelevant and only the feel and taste of the performer is important. On the path to this ultimate, it is important to remember that this is the goal and work towards it. The ultimate musician is not a computer (which can perform any paper, tab or notation, given to it), rather it is a complex and tasteful individual who has a unique sound that he is willing to share with his listeners.
 
I just TABs or notation or ABC because then I have no need to spend precious recreation time remembering the tune. It is neatly written out in front of me and I can get on with playing it. If i do that over several years, i get to know the tune well. if you are going to be playing your uke every day for the next 20 years, there is no need to rush.
I don't think improvising and playing by ear are the only pure forms of music. Music is organised sound that pleases the ear of the target listener. The written formats are just memory aides, to help organise the sounds. Any kind of music can be pure, whether you use a memory aide or not.
If you can make better use of your playing time by learning how to use a memory aide, you should consider doing it because time is precious.
Obviously, if you aspire to playing regularly in a genre where part of the fun is playing without memory aides, you will need to remember the music, but that part of the activity is just specific to that particular genre, it is not a universal requirement. But I suspect you are going to need a memory aide initially to learn the tune.

Bill,

There was a time, decades ago, when I could memorize and retain songs easily and I did play out in a band and that was pretty much required. Now, 40 years later, I have great difficulty memorizing or retaining songs, so I also lean quite heavily on the use of printed memory aids. I keep a notebook of songs instead of a head full of songs. No shame in that - the biggest frustration is some more complicated pieces are very difficult without watching the fretboard for jumps and stretches, but I'm just grateful that I have discovered the uke at this late date.
 
At that point tab and notation (and this thread) become irrelevant and only the feel and taste of the performer is important.

Sopher,

Your comment is bad netiquette.
Please refrain from stating a thread is irrelevant, especially when you start to hi-jack said thread.
Kindly,
The OP (wags finger disappointingly)

ps: Many posts in this thread state that this was a good topic and they learned something from it ergo the thread is relevant.
 
Sopher,

Your comment is bad netiquette.
Please refrain from stating a thread is irrelevant, especially when you start to hi-jack said thread.
Kindly,
The OP (wags finger disappointingly)

ps: Many posts in this thread state that this was a good topic and they learned something from it ergo the thread is relevant.

I agree with sopher...
 
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Sopher,

Your comment is bad netiquette.
Please refrain from stating a thread is irrelevant, especially when you start to hi-jack said thread.
Kindly,
The OP (wags finger disappointingly)

ps: Many posts in this thread state that this was a good topic and they learned something from it ergo the thread is relevant.


Dear Op,

I'm sorry if my meaning wasn't clear from my statements. I meant to state a sort of zen ideal, where the musician can play anything they can conceive, including playing anything they have heard and/or any unique sounds that they can conceive. For such an idealized musician, notation of any kind would be unnecessary. I will never reach such a state and very few will ever. So I was not saying that the thread is irrelevant to me or to the other readers or participants, I was just trying to discriminate between the music and the documentation. As I stated earlier, I very much rely upon the printed sheets as my memory is definitely not improving with age.

Sorry if I stated it in a way which was unclear.
 
Sopher,



A lot of times it those who do not have the musical chops that criticize and talk about how professional musicians are not true artists. It sounds like "sour grapes" or just plain jealousy. Let's be honest here. The professional musicians are good enough to make a living from their art. While those that usually criticize hack away on their instruments and do their 9 to 5 at their job.



1. There are those who can learn to play by ear. I would say it's very few professional musicians who learn to play by ear. I've known a lot of musicians, not just amateurs but professionals who made their living at music. All of them had to study their instrument and learn how to read music notation, firm grasp of chords and music structure. Most of them now could learn a song by ear because they understand music.


2 On the guitar and ukulele as I'm sure you know there are closed chords. When we transpose a piece, often times we only have to move the chord shape down or up the neck. There is not a lot of thinking and it starts to happen automatically.

3. Reading standard notation opens up a world of music. If you only read tabs then you have to depend on others. I'm sure you've seen people ask if someone has it in tabs. If you can read standard notation then you can learn from any piece of music.

4 I explained that reading standard notation will not make someone musical. I said that it helps you learn your instrument and where the notes are located. As stated in point 3, it also allows you to pick up any musical sheet music and learn a song.

5. The notes on an instrument are the ABCs of the language of music. You use these notes to place chords shapes and melody notes on top of the chords. Tableture serves no other purpose then to transcribe music notation. A number 1 is only a placement for your finger. Unlike a note C in notation which describes a tone and also how it may fit in a chord shape.

* Example ukulele: If I play a C on a ukulele. I have a choice of where I want to play it. I can have the C note lower, middle or higher up in tone. This changes the sound of a song. I know where the C notes are on the ukulele and understand what chord I can play on that fret. Tableture only tells me one place to play. That's someone's interpretation. If you want to be an artist as you say then you have a choice.

6. If you want to practice musicality, then take a chord progression and see how you can take a few chords and play them differently with different rhythms and timing.

7. Most people need the building blocks of music ( chord structures, musical notes on the instruments, chord progressions, and an understanding of music keys ) to be able to play by ear and also to master and have creativity in your music.


You're trying to shortcut the work. You have this idea that the music will just come magically. It takes work and time, even learning by ear. It really does not matter how long someone has played. You can play bad for twenty years.

* I do not have a problem with someone strumming their 3 chords or just reading tableture. That's their choice but it's leaves you with limited options. I think most people desire to play an instrument well. Maybe that's why we see so many people quitting their instrument. They're unhappy with their progress.

It's a disservice to tell people who want to learn their instrument well enough to play anything that there's no need to learn the notes on your instrument, read music notation, or study music theory.

If you understand how to make a chord and how it sounds, then when you hear it, you can play it. But you need the work of making the chord and knowing where to find it on your instrument.
 
Dick,

I think playing by ear and improvising are the purest forms of music. Some people play because it will impress girls, or because they need a hobby, but real musicians play because they need to express a sound. It may be a sound they heard being made by others and they were so profoundly moved by it that they need to try to reproduce that. Or it may be their own unique sound that they need to express. The ultimate musician sees his instrument, not as tab or notes, but as sounds. He has a sound he desires to make and he knows just how to manipulate the instrument to produce that. At that point tab and notation (and this thread) become irrelevant and only the feel and taste of the performer is important. On the path to this ultimate, it is important to remember that this is the goal and work towards it. The ultimate musician is not a computer (which can perform any paper, tab or notation, given to it), rather it is a complex and tasteful individual who has a unique sound that he is willing to share with his listeners.

I agree. A musician will find a way to learn whatever he/she needs to learn, whether that's with serious musical study or just playing in a band. Maybe they know chords on guitar or piano (here's F and there's another F and another F over here), maybe they just play the instrument by ear, maybe they know a lot of complicated musical theory. Musicians are as varied as the music they play. No one method of learning would suit everyone, nor should it. If a musician wants to learn to read notation, the information is out there to do it.
 
I just found this thread and haven't read the whole thing so please forgive me if that has already been covered: I think if you are going to use TAB then you should try to get to the point where you can quickly name all the notes on the fretboard (and on the tab). Knowing the notes you are playing is what keeps TABs from being a "paint by numbers" type exercise.
 
It's funny how the whole tab/notation/ear debate changes depending on the people you're talking to and the instruments they play. Among recorder players, I am an ignoramus because I am terrible at playing from sheet music. I play by ear, but that is amateurish and has no value at all in a consort that always plays from paper. OTOH, among mountain dulcimer players, whenever I suggest that somebody work out a tune by ear, I get accused of being an elitist because I have that rare ability, which is highly prized, but I shouldn't rub it in for the poor souls who can't do it.

Thus, the same skill set makes me a useless idiot in one group of musicians, and an elitist show-off in another. I like to keep this in mind. It's a reality check every time I start to think one technique might be "better" than another.

I do think this is an interesting thread. However, it's good to remember this is a discussion of "what works for me" and not an opportunity to let our egos argue that "my way" is the best. Your way is not the best for everybody. Really, it isn't. Let it go and be happy that every musician has unique goals, unique skills, and a unique brain to work with.
 
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