Help! Need to amplify but HATE the sound!

lehyslop

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Hi there,

I've played ukulele for a couple of years, not a beginner but well short of expert. Now wanting to do some solo work... I have a concert soprano uke (acoustic, nylon strings) made by Bailey guitars, with a stick-on (well, glued on now) transducer and a Headway pre-amp. Have tried the Headway piezo under-saddle pickup also.

Problem is, the uke sounds AMAZING without amplification, such a beautiful tone, great intonation, etc. As soon as it's amplified, it all goes wrong: terrible string squeak, string thumping, and loss of the brilliant acoustic overtones, especially the more I try to filter out the evil sounds.

I've tried using an external mic, but it's only useful for recording, in a live situation it just feeds back or isn't loud enough. Should I try something else? Is it my technique? I'm at my freakin wit's end. Please help before I smash the thing (it was pretty expensive). Okay, wouldn't do that, just sit in the corner and cry. And then play my uke to the furniture.

Cheers,
Laura
 
I use microphones successfully for LIVE performance. If you want the best sound then its your best choice.

Since you have given us no information on your microphone setup I'm guessing, but the usual culprits are the quality and type of microphone, your technique for setting up the microphone, the quality and setup of the PA system and a biggie, too much foldback.

Turn off any foldback to start with and only introduce a tiny amount if you need to. I play solo without foldback. Generally close miking is the way to go but you need to position carefully for maximum volume without feedback. Condenser microphones are best for instruments and one with a tight pickup pattern can help a lot.

Plugging a piezo pickup into a amplifier is easy. Using a microphone takes a bit of knowledge and skill.

Anthony
 
As per other posts to this thread, we need more info about your live setup before useful advice can be given.

Having said that, you will need to be using a cardioid or super-cardioid mic that is pretty close to the uke (not more than 1 foot away), going either into a mic preamp at your feet, or a proper PA mixer (that has built-in mic preamps), with the levels set for being loud enough and having either a notch filter or parametric eq to mitigate the offending frequencies causing feedback. While these are generalizations, these are also minimum requirements for getting a decent live sound from a mic.

As far as your issues with using a pickup, I'm a bit unclear on the trouble your having based upon the description given.

It's common wisdom in this forum that while you can get a pleasing and useful sound from a uke from a pickup, but the sound via a pickup is NOT one that replicates the natural acoustic sound you hear with your ears, and for that kind of sound (if that is your intent) you would use a proper mic setup.

Having said, THAT, you can get a close approximation of a uke-like sound with most any pickup, just dont expect any kind of surface or under-saddle transducer to reproduce the exact sound that you hear through the air with your ears. Wood-via-piezo will not resonate the same as wood-via-air, it's simple physics really.
 
Feedback can also be caused by positioning the mic where it is pointing directly at the speakers. Keep the speakers way off to the sides and in front of the mic.
 
Have you tried one of the modelling acoustic amplifiers like the small inexpensive THR5a? They allow you to simulate a mix of mic and undersaddle and create a very sweet tone if used properly.
 
Having just very recently "gone electric" after 50 years of acoustic guitar I'm probably not well equipped to comment, but one concept that hasn't been mentioned is the "feedback buster", basically a perforated disc that fits into the soundhole of an acoustic guitar and reduces the amount of sound that can actually feed back into an instrument. Doubtless they also reduce the level of sound that comes out, but careful microphone positioning should be able to compensate for that, whilst retaining the natural sound of the instrument. I'm thinking small, probably directional condenser microphone on a small stalk or bracket mounted directly on the instrument, much like one sees on violins or even flutes.

Just a thought ... hope it might help :)
 
Just a suggestion, the higher you crank the volume, the more it distorts the sound. I've found that you don't need as much volume as you would think to project the sound out. Sometimes I can't hear the amp over my uke, and I'll ask my wife later if I need to crank it up a little, and she will say it is just fine where it is. Also, let the amp do the work. Playing a lot softer results in a much cleaner sound. Let the amp give you the volume that you need, don't try to get it out of the uke. But again, it doesn't take all that much volume to reach out.
 
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Just a suggestion, the higher you crank the volume, the more it distorts the sound. I've found that you don't need as much volume as you would think to project the sound out. Sometimes I can't hear the amp over my uke, and I'll ask my wife later if I need to crank it up a little, and she will say it is just fine where it is. Also, let the amp do the work. Playing a lot softer results in a much cleaner sound. Let the amp give you the volume that you need, don't try to get it out of the uke. But again, it doesn't take all that much volume to reach out.

I agree and disagree with parts of this post.

Yes, the amplified sound is louder than musicians think it is. Speakers project sound forwards and in order to minimise feedback musicians need to be behind or beside the speaker. The fact that it doesn't sound loud to the performer is GOOD. What I disagree with is saying that you should only play quietly and get the volume out of the amp. The truth is complicated. In order to minimise feedback you need a good strong signal so that the microphone gain doesn't have to be turned up too high which makes it susceptible to feedback. The microphone gain needs to be set to the playing level, INDEPENDENTLY of the output volume. Player dynamics are important too. This is a bit technical.

This is why we need to th e OP's setup & settings.

One thing to note, unless you have a really great instrument, and far be it from me to say this, but here goes - most people could care less how your uke sounds, as long as it sits well in the mix.

Don't get me wrong, I'm VERY critical about amplified sound, and appreciate when comments are made about how the uke (or bass) sounded during the gig. But honestly, that comes from musicians, and not the general crowd. When the crowd says "you guys are good" it's not because of how the instruments sound, it because of the whole performance, which is really what matters, right?

There are a LOT of DRUNK or otherwise punters out there who are out for a good time and will just tell you things sound great because they don't want to hurt your feelings or start a fight at a party. Listen to the musicians if you want to sound good.

Anthony
 
This is why we need to th e OP's setup & settings.

One thing to note, unless you have a really great instrument, and far be it from me to say this, but here goes - most people could care less how your uke sounds, as long as it sits well in the mix.

Don't get me wrong, I'm VERY critical about amplified sound, and appreciate when comments are made about how the uke (or bass) sounded during the gig. But honestly, that comes from musicians, and not the general crowd. When the crowd says "you guys are good" it's not because of how the instruments sound, it because of the whole performance, which is really what matters, right?
I agree with you. There is much more to it.
 
Hi there,

Firstly, thanks so very much to all who responded... with family visiting for Thanksgiving and Christmas preparations, it's taken a while review everything and collect the requested data. So here goes...

First part, addressing the hardware:

The luthier had installed a couple of different pickups at different times for experimentation purposes... he thinks (but isn't completely sure) we landed on the K&K Pure Mini.

The preamp is by Headway, and here is a pic of the last settings I used (note that the Mute button is set as a matter of course on startup, the notch filter IS theoretically being used... settings analysis provided by my husband who is an electronics engineer, in combination with what I'd estimated was the most likely frequency range of a uke-string hit, which is what I'm trying to cut out... and I've varied between the channel inputs because I'm not sure if stereo is being output from the pickup, doesn't seem to be a difference though):
View attachment 86445

A custom, high-quality cable is being used from the uke to the preamp (I don't remember the exact specs, but ordered fancy parts from Thomann because I couldn't find a high-quality short cable with an angled input):
View attachment 86446

The amps/PAs used varied from a Vox Valvetronix (set to completely clean output), a Stagg 20 AA R, a very crappy PA setup, and a very high-quality PA setup. In all cases, the worst problem I hear is the percussive hits on the strings when strumming, and sliding noises from fingerpicking (not from the chord hand, have that sorted). The loss of overtones and such, although annoying, are not nearly as much of an issue. The percussive sounds and fingerpick streaks are enough to completely distract me from playing.

Second part, the quality of the instrument and my playing:

As mentioned, maybe an advanced beginner... here are 3 rough recording done in the first year of playing, just ambient with one of those old style silver 50s type mics, in my friend's studio:

http://sederunt.com/transfer/songs/Blue-Red-and-Gray.mp3
http://sederunt.com/transfer/songs/Broken-Heart.mp3
http://sederunt.com/transfer/songs/Without-You.mp3

And here is an example of playing through the nice PA setup... I think there was quite a bit of post-record processing (and misses the guitar completely) as the hits and squeaks were much more audible live, as I remember (starts about 2 min in):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9FS-k5-ukE

In general, I think I play fairly lightly, perhaps not very controlled though... but it seems when plugged in I should play harder.

Third part, live mic-ing:

We tried it a couple of times, with a Beyerdynamic MC836... it just didn't seem to work due to the feedback (no monitors involved). I put it down to the pub being so noisy... probably would work in a concert hall but no plans for anything like that...

Thanks in advance for your responses,
Laura
 
I plugged in for ages because... well, it was just what you were supposed to do! I was never happy with the sound though. It was a trade off- volume for tone. I was fortunate enough to be playing at a festival with Del Rey, and listened to her play though a single large diaphragm condenser mic. In fact, she had guitarist Adam Franklin with her as well, so a uke, a guitar and two vocals, all picked up by the one mic. It changed my life, and I vowed never to plug in again. It sounded amazing- natural, dynamic, MUSICAL. On top of that, once that mic was set up (during the soundcheck), there was no messing around with cables and boxes when they came on stage- they just walked on and played.

Since then I have used this type of mic (current model I use is an Audio Technica AT2020), and yes you do come up against resistance from soundmen who have got used to people just plugging in, and yes you will have to deal with feedback, but it's an art, and you get better at making it work. I've used this setup on large festival stages, theatres, clubs and yes, even pubs. You have quite a lot of freedom of movement, as the mic picks up sounds at quite a distance.

I have also used a regular vocal mic (Shure SM58) for my voice and a pencil condenser (something like an SM81) for the uke successfully, though you do have to stand still a bit more.
 
Following on from Phil Doleman's post, Del has a page about her single microphone use here:
http://www.onemicstand.com/
Also, when Del and Adam performed around the single mic, I asked Del what the mic was as it sounded so great, it was an MCA SP1, a $45 mic!
h
 
Thanks for all that folks... will try again with the mic & see how it goes...

I couldn't put too many links in a single message, so here are the pics via URL:

Headway settings:
http://sederunt.com/transfer/songs/headway_settings.jpg

The cable is probably irrelevant but here it is:
http://sederunt.com/transfer/songs/custom_cable.jpg

Wish I could afford a different size uke but will need to wait some time before that happens... I do like the sweetness (esp as counterpoint to my deep-ish rasp) but really it is pretty quiet... just played a gig with all-uke group, the band leader used a type of plectrum so may give that a shot as well to get more sound out.

I think for the live performance uke went through some sort of DI box... what exactly does that do? It seemed to really improve the sound without any settings required.

Cheers,
Laura
 
No one has mentioned this, but the dryness of your fingers and the type of strings can greatly contribute to string noise, especially when fingerpicked.The more texture the strings have the more noise. I have 2 ukes with pickups. The LR baggs in my Koaloha seems to pick up more string noise and percussive body thump, but I usually play that with a group of mixed instruments and the other musicians like the percussive sound, My Loprinzi tenor has a MISI, and that is less noisy and has a more natural sound [to me anyway] I think both systems use th same undersaddle strip with different preamps. I could be wrong. Both are currently strung low G . If my fingers are dry I just rub them on my greasy nose, I know that sounds gross, but it seems to help. I saw Jake play, and he is plugged in and his Kamaka sounded like pure magic, but he is Jake. anyone know what pick up he has installed?
 
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but one concept that hasn't been mentioned is the "feedback buster", basically a perforated disc that fits into the soundhole of an acoustic guitar and reduces the amount of sound that can actually feed back into an instrument.

The bass player in the group I play with forgot his disc last night and had a feed back problem when setting up. He had to adjust his settings down.

His feedback buster is a plastic lid off a jar that just happens to be a perfect fit in the sound hole of his u bass. (His particular u bass started life as a classical guitar.)
 
Anyone try an EV ND468?

I've used this mic for my cajon, but not yet for a uke. (Not good enough to perform yet) Just curious if anyone has tried it for uke only, not combo with vocals.
 
Hiya
I'm an advanced player, but not used to amping up.
I need help getting a Classical guitar sound from my Tenor Ukes.
I've got a Spruce/rosewood and a Koa, both with Five.0 pick ups installed.
I'm using good quality leads, strings, and a Roland ac60 acoustic amp.
I have a Venue Di, Hall of fame reverb, studio pre amp, Boss eq, Pog octaver, a good delay pedal , Nocturna shimmer pedal, multi effects pedal, boss looper and 2 Korg Pandoras plus 2 good condenser mics.
Any advice on settings, mic placement, do I need mics? Strings...anything please..I'm getting a quacky, thin sound at the moment...venue settings at 12 o'clock...��
 
Help with amping up, classical guitar tone.

Hiya
I'm an advanced player, but not used to amping up.
I need help getting a Classical guitar sound from my Tenor Ukes.
I've got a Spruce/rosewood and a Koa, both with Five.0 pick ups installed.
I'm using good quality leads, strings, and a Roland ac60 acoustic amp.

I have a Venue Di, Hall of fame reverb, studio pre amp, Boss eq, Pog octaver, a good delay pedal , Nocturna shimmer pedal, multi effects pedal, boss looper and 2 Korg Pandoras plus 2 good condenser mics.

Any advice on settings, mic placement, do I need mics? Strings...anything please..I'm getting a quacky, thin sound at the moment...venue settings at 12 o'clock...😀
 
...I need help getting a Classical guitar sound from my Tenor Ukes...

Kinda sounds like your intent here is to make an orange taste like a banana, which would likely require all kinds of confectionery magic techniques, be quite 'messy' yet still not meet the objective.

The laws of physics seem to be stacked against you, since the starting point of a classical guitar has vastly different acoustic resonance and tone when compared to the much smaller tenor uke, with almost 1/4 the sound box air volume and 1/4 the surface area of the sound board and further at best 1/3 the total string tension.

As my Old Uncle Olaf used to say: "You cannot get a silk purse from a sow's ear, no matter how much jelly and mustard you paint over it".

Good luck in your quest :music:
 
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