Marketplace blues

This is a bit of a vent but also a question so I hope it is OK to post. This week I agreed thru PM to buy a uke that was for sale in the marketplace. Last night I was informed by the seller that he sold it locally, without even so much as a warning that he had another interested party. I understand that this an informal marketplace but I really hope that this is not the norm. To me the sale ends once the buyer and seller agree even if no money has been exchanged. If something goes wrong after that it seems fair to re-list the item. Maybe I'm being naive here but I would honor an agreement done thru PM even if it meant less money and I hope that for the vast majority of people here that is how they see it as well. In the end it's not a big deal, there will be plenty more out there to buy and I have a beautiful Graziano to play but it does make me think twice now when looking.

Thanks for letting me vent.

John

Vent away John, most of us have had deals go sideways on us and we are left with a feeling of general distrust... but on the other hand i have dealt with some amazingly honest and classy people here so give it a while and then step back up and you probably find the next seller you deal with is a good experience.

On another note i still think having a sub-forum of trading feedback would be a great thing, it is used in so many other forums and may save a buyer from making a bad choice.

never bought or sold a uke in the marketplace....but once you say you are buying don't you follow up right away with payment? I am sure if the seller had the money in his hands he never would of sold the uke to anyone else.....don't know the details but hard to argue your point unless we hear from the seller....

my 2 cents

Shake it off. Maybe that uke really wasn't destined for you. Maybe you avoided a problem.

I've bought and sold many a uke here and elsewhere, 99% were smooth transactions.
Folks agree on terms and price, and it's a done deal.

One bad apple doesn't mean the whole bunch are.

As a very active buyer, seller, and trader, this happens more than I would like as well, BUT, the times that it has happened to me has caused a delay long enough for me to get something that wasn't available when I started the transaction and I ended up happier.

It'a quite upsetting as I have had sellers actually tell me that they changed their mind on selling me something because they found a buyer that would pay more. Smile, bite your lip, and realize that there is something better out there. Also, most of these people disappeared soon after, so.....

Most of my transactions have been great experiences and I have made friends that will last for a long time. It is a great place to transact business and have fun. Don't get discouraged. Keep it up. You will take away much more from this forum in positive experiences than you will in negatives.

Doc_J said:

Shake it off. Maybe that uke really wasn't destined for you. Maybe you avoided a problem.

I've bought and sold many a uke here and elsewhere, 99% were smooth transactions.
Folks agree on terms and price, and it's done deal.

On bad apple doesn't mean the whole bunch are.

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I agree Hodge!

Mitch

Normally I do agree with Hodge and I guess I still do but that 1% can hurt and you have to be careful.

I have a Collings UT2 up for sale and a "New Member" for Malyasia contacted me and said he wanted to buy it. Over the last 5 days we have gone back and forth and he keeps asking questions and slowly trying to change the terms. It should have been a simple paypal transaction, I do not even ask for friends and family, I take the hit so both parties are covered. He sent me another email wanting an invoice from me and an hour ago he suggested we forget paypal so I don't loose money and he would transfer the funds into my bank account.

I told him the deal was off and I would not be scamed. I gave him an hour to make the paypal deposit and he has not done that.

I do not hear about this happening often here on UU, so this abandoning of a sale here for a local offer is likely the exception.

Typically if an item in the marketplace is ALSO for sale local to the seller, they will disclose that in the sale listing, if not, it seems dishonest to me.

As a general rule, I will not make an offer if:

1. The seller is new to the forum, i.e., less than 4-5 months at least.
2. The seller has less than 100 posts to the forum.
3. The seller's account is several years old, yet they also have less than 100 posts here.

Reasons for the above are related to the fact that if the seller is not part of this community, then they have no reputation, no history, and no engagement here.

Hit-and-run sales can be done MANY other places online, ebay, cragslist, kijiji and others where there is no 'community'.

I'm not paranoid, but I've found lots of lies or incompetent descriptions on ebay and craigslist, and whether due to ignorance or malice, the end result is that you really have no perfect idea what in fact you are sending your money across the internet to buy.

Trying to get your money back is ALWAYS a hassle unless you deal with honest folks. Yes, YYMV, but most folks here on UU are not interested in hurting other people or perpetuating scams, otherwise they'd likely be banned after a few bad transactions.

So, even though I've been burned by sellers on ebay a handful of times, I am still optimistic that if you can do your own diligence and research, you can mitigate the problems with Marketplace deals, here on UU and elsewhere.

I will continue to try and believe that NOT everyone is evil.

I may go a bit against the flow here, but I feel that unless money has been exchanged, the seller is free to take up another offer. I understand why someone would prefer to sell a ukulele locally: less hassle with shipping, no risk for either side with the money transfer, and instant gratification, though I also understand John's frustration in a case like this. It's probably one of those situations where the views of both parties are valid.

That said, personally, if I sold a ukulele, I would not offer it in different places at the same time (say, here and also locally), precisely to avoid a situation like this.

DownUpDave said:

Normally I do agree with Hodge and I guess I still do but that 1% can hurt and you have to be careful.

I have a Collings UT2 up for sale and a "New Member" for Malyasia contacted me and said he wanted to buy it. Over the last 5 days we have gone back and forth and he keeps asking questions and slowly trying to change the terms. It should have been a simple paypal transaction, I do not even ask for friends and family, I take the hit so both parties are covered. He sent me another email wanting an invoice from me and an hour ago he suggested we forget paypal so I don't loose money and he would transfer the funds into my bank account.

I told him the deal was off and I would not be scamed. I gave him an hour to make the paypal deposit and he has not done that.

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Booli's criterion might be good advice for those of us looking to sell as well.

All I can say is that we swim in a sea of Ukuleles and a better one will show up!

I've been lucky. I have bought and/or sold ukuleles in the Marketplace only a few times, buy each has been a good experience with someone who did what he promised to do.

From a legal standpoint, an offer generally becomes binding on the offerer when it is accepted, unless the acceptance changes any of the terms of the offer, in which case the acceptance is actually a counteroffer the seller my refuse. Often, especially when sales are agreed to in forums, it's difficult to pay right away, as the details of payment and shipping have to be worked out. In the legal world, the laws anticipate this problem so that a deal is sometimes considered having been made at the time of agreement, but unless something is unique, like real property, the remedy is that the buyer gets his money back (and the buyer is not considered damaged if he hasn't paid, unless he declined another opportunity in anticipation of buying the item he accepted the offer to buy), not that the seller is forced to sell the item he offered for sale. If all my years as a lawyer have taught me anything, it's that often it isn't worth asserting one's legal rights. Forcing someone to do something, even if they're supposed to, can be frustrating and it's probably bad karma. I like to believe that the universe takes care of people who renege.

I prefer, as many people who have posted in this thread have said, to think of what should have been a done deal going sideways as a blessing I just don't know about yet -- something better invariably comes along. I once had a luthier cancel my order to build an ukulele with wood that I had selected (the lutheier bought the woodset I found online after I send a link to show the luthier the set I was planning to buy) and after I had made a deposit (the deposit was returned to me, but the luthier kept the woodset). I was angry at the time, but the money I didn't spend on that ukulele allowed me to get a custom Beau Hannam tenor later, and I couldn't be happier about that.

It would be nice if there were a marketplace review subforum here, if only to encourage people to be on their best behavior when buying or selling something. In your shoes, I would shake off the slight, make a mental note to avoid any potential transactions with the person who sold the uke from under you after you agreed to buy it, and wait for the "something better" to come along.

I am pretty pragmatic. I think it is simply a matter of who owns the ukulele.

hawaii 50 said:

never bought or sold a uke in the marketplace....but once you say you are buying don't you follow up right away with payment? I am sure if the seller had the money in his hands he never would of sold the uke to anyone else.....don't know the details but hard to argue your point unless we hear from the seller....

my 2 cents

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I was told by the seller he would send me the PayPal info I needed when he was ready to ship. Otherwise I agree, once you have the info the buyer needs to send payment right away.

John

Doc_J said:

Shake it off. Maybe that uke really wasn't destined for you. Maybe you avoided a problem.

I've bought and sold many a uke here and elsewhere, 99% were smooth transactions.
Folks agree on terms and price, and it's done deal.

On bad apple doesn't mean the whole bunch are.

Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more. I'm sure something better will come along and that most everyone here is a good honest person to do business with.

John

jelow1966 said:

I was told by the seller he would send me the PayPal info I needed when he was ready to ship. Otherwise I agree, once you have the info the buyer needs to send payment right away.

John

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if what you say is true....pretty sad...IMO

Mivo said:

I may go a bit against the flow here, but I feel that unless money has been exchanged, the seller is free to take up another offer. I understand why someone would prefer to sell a ukulele locally: less hassle with shipping, no risk for either side with the money transfer, and instant gratification, though I also understand John's frustration in a case like this. It's probably one of those situations where the views of both parties are valid.

That said, personally, if I sold a ukulele, I would not offer it in different places at the same time (say, here and also locally), precisely to avoid a situation like this.

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Yep. What irks me the most is that I believe it was sold to someone who contacted the seller here days after I had PMed him and then picked it up. I'm fine with the seller choosing to do it that way if he at least offers me a chance to up my offer, in this case paying shipping which I might have been willing to do. Only seems fair and I do get why a seller would choose the local option. Personally I wouldn't unless the person I was dealing with first was okay with it after I explained the situation. For the most part I'd rather lose a little potential money and keep my word instead.

John

Mivo said:

I may go a bit against the flow here, but I feel that unless money has been exchanged, the seller is free to take up another offer. I understand why someone would prefer to sell a ukulele locally: less hassle with shipping, no risk for either side with the money transfer, and instant gratification, though I also understand John's frustration in a case like this. It's probably one of those situations where the views of both parties are valid.

That said, personally, if I sold a ukulele, I would not offer it in different places at the same time (say, here and also locally), precisely to avoid a situation like this.

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Mivo, I think you may have a good point here that if the money does not flow then it's all fair game.

I tend to take people at their word, maybe I am too gullible, or too optimistic, and expect that when they express intent, and a verbal or gentleman's agreement is made, that this a promise or covenant that is going to be honored by both sides.

Exceptions can arise, but as responsible adults we can adjust to them as needed if both parties are amenable.

The problem I find is that sometimes there are expert con artists who prey on folks like me, so I try to have a good radar for things like this, to avoid anything that seems 'fishy' by my own definition.

A buyer/seller feedback sub-forum may be a good idea, but proper management of one is not without perils and pitfalls, and would require special care not to become a place for mudslinging and slander.

hawaii 50 said:

if what you say is true....pretty sad...IMO

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Sadly it is all too true.

But the good folks here have offered good advice and much like the ukulele itself have left me in a better mood. So thanks all

John

Booli said:

I tend to take people at their word, maybe I am too gullible, or too optimistic, and expect that when they express intent, and a verbal or gentleman's agreement is made, that this a promise or covenant that is going to be honored by both sides.

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I think this should be the default. John added some information that shifted my view a bit, too. The fact that the seller had agreed, but not provided payment information so that John could transfer the money, is the decisive aspect, I feel. If John had not transferred the money because he didn't have it yet or because he wasn't 100% sure of whether he wanted it, I wouldn't criticize the seller for selling it to someone who not only expressed interest, but handed over the money too. But not giving John the PayPal info after agreeing to the deal, then selling to someone else, yes, I feel that is bad form.

Mivo said:

I think this should be the default. John added some information that shifted my view a bit, too. The fact that the seller had agreed, but not provided payment information so that John could transfer the money, is the decisive aspect, I feel. If John had not transferred the money because he didn't have it yet or because he wasn't 100% sure of whether he wanted it, I wouldn't criticize the seller for selling it to someone who not only expressed interest, but handed over the money too. But not giving John the PayPal info after agreeing to the deal, then selling to someone else, yes, I feel that is bad form.

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Very well put. If it was a case of me being slow to pay that would all be on me and I'd have to suck it up and admit I was at fault.

John