Uke Nuts, why was/is wood used?

Timbuck said:
Nowadays I use ebony all the time with no problems...in the past I've tried alsorts of materials on nuts and saddles including brass and aluminium ...couldnt hear any difference with blind testing..but something that can make a big difference is string choice.
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I’d considered Alloy but it’s a bit heavier than wood and Brass is much heavier, I didn’t think that adding mass onto a surface that is supposed to vibrate would be a good idea.

On my cheap laminate Ukes replacing the existing saddles with bone has made a vast positive difference. Of course my experience might not match what others find and higher quality Ukes might have more tolerance for other materials ....... I just don’t know. I agree that strings do make a vast difference too, however selecting the best strings for any Uke seems to be an art. Martins seem to suit my Kala brand Ukes, they sound great on my Concert and very good on my Soprano.

Anyway, back to nuts, I recon that the best we can hope for is to pick something hard, like Ebony, that also matches the vibration path through the fretboard. Something that gives a balanced sound (between fretted and not) and looks good too. Now next time when I change a plastic nut for something better it will be a question of whether to try one of the bone ones that I have in my stash first - they usually work fine - or to just make and fit a hard wood one instead. At least I now know what to make one from and why wood both was and is used.
 
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Timbuck said:
Compensating nuts ?...Bone nuts ? Ebony nuts ? Zero frets ? only applies with open strings Am7...all out of the game as soon you fret a note.
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Don't think of nut compensation as changing the length. Think of it as changing the tension required to make the open string in tune. The nut may be "out of the game" on a fretted note, but the tension the string started with isn't.

Is it worthwhile on such a short scale instrument? I don't know. But there isn't any reason nut compensation can't have an effect on fretted notes.
 
Beau Hannam Ukuleles said:
I've never used corian but i hear it's a good material for nuts (and maybe saddles?)- Chuck Moore used to use it a bit but not anymore...or he just doesn't mention it anymore.
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I've used it quite a bit for both nuts and saddles on my own guitars. Easy to work with, no cost (you can get scraps for free), great longevity, and I can't hear a difference. Convincing customers to try it? Not so successful...!
 
mmn said:
Easy to work with, no cost (you can get scraps for free), great longevity, and I can't hear a difference. Convincing customers to try it? Not so successful...!
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All of the above true and I couldn't hear a difference. However, mine was a sort of fish belly light gray color and a chalky mat appearance. I did not like the look personally. Below a couple of pictures of a corian saddle on an uke. Doesn't show it well, but it just didn't seem to fit esthetically wise.

DSCN7458.jpg DSCN7466.jpg
 
Martin ukuleles used Maple on the nut and saddle before 1920. There should be lots of hard maple left over from tear downs of bowling alleys or even the broken pins.
 
Ken Franklin said:
One other reason I can think of for not using a zero fret has to do with compensation. Just as the saddle can be compensated for more accurate intonation so can the nut. For those using a template system for slotting their frets, the nut slot that would be for a zero fret is just about wide enough to move the nut forward for in-the-ballpark nut compensation and more can be had somewhat easily. I suppose you could move the nut slot forward by hand that same .012" and get the same result. Easy on a CNC machine I guess. Some instrument makers such as Greg Byers compensate the nut individually for each string. That would be difficult with a zero fret.

Those getting a different sound from a different material could be due to the way the nut is slotted. Good nut slotting technique can affect the sound quite a bit.

I agree with Dansimpson that the saddle material will make more of a difference in tone than the nut material.
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I have read about compensated nuts, but the concept eludes me. It would only work on open strings. I would think that once you fret a string, or put on a capo, whatever you've done to the nut would make no difference.
Could someone explain the concept to me?
 
Graham Greenbag said:
I’d considered Alloy but it’s a bit heavier than wood and Brass is much heavier, I didn’t think that adding mass onto a surface that is supposed to vibrate would be a good idea...the best we can hope for is to pick something hard, like Ebony, that also matches the vibration path through the fretboard.
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When you say "a surface that is supposed vibrate" do you mean the nut? "Vibating path through the fretboard"? Do you expect the fretboard to vibrate?? I'm lost.
 
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stevepetergal said:
When you say "a surface that is supposed vibrate" do you mean the nut? "Vibating path through the fretboard"? Do you expect the fretboard to vibrate?? I'm lost.
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Sorry for any misunderstanding. My post responded to another and there is a degree of implied context, but I’m sorry for any confusion you found. I was referring to use of metal as a saddle material and the soundboard which is a surface that is ment to vibrate. I believe that the saddle, bridge and soundboard all move (vibrate) together in unison - effectively as one item - but if someone thinks different or thinks a high mass saddle is desirable then I’d be interested to hear why. I hope that that clarifies things.

My original post (which started this thread) was about nut materials and historic use, it seems to have drifted a bit to include saddles too. The drift content is interesting to me in that the same material is sometimes - and sometimes not - used for both those items. My suspicion is that material choice was pragmatic: the materials used were considered at least good enough for the purposes intended, were readily available and didn’t have significant costs.

Whilst adding this response I’d like to thank those that have added information to the thread. It’s very kind of you to share your knowledge and typical of the way the people on UU support each other.
 
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I would describe the top as vibrating.

I wouldn't really describe the saddle or bridge as vibrating, although of course they do just by being there but it a secondary vibration of sorts.

The saddle is the conductor of the string energy (physically known as vibration).

The bridge could also be described as the conductor in a secondary way. The bridge's main job is to act the most important brace on a uke or guitar top.

A high mass saddle would be bad, assuming high mass= high weight. The saddle/bridge should be a light/stiff as possible while retaining the strength to hold its own shape. 8-9-11 grams seems to be about the lowest weight i can get with an ebony uke bridge. The 4 bridges in the pics below are about 10 grams each.

Brass would be a bad metal for a bridge.
Titanium might work as I think it is very light (?) , but its super hard to cut and work with, and expensive. ...so... not worth it- worth trying though if you have a spare 3" of titanium laying around.

The heavier a bridge is, the more it acts as a "heat sink" for vibration.

4 bridge shapes.
1- Long parabolic.
2- Art Deco type.
3- Faceted Parabolic.
4- Pyramid
40365414_1848756825213022_7092488368734339072_o.jpg
40376905_1848755978546440_7925283231803375616_o.jpg
IMG_7632.jpg
 
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Not sure I'd agree that the lowest possible mass bridge is always the best. As I understand it (if I do!) a heavier bridge reduces attack (and volume) but increases sustain. So a lot depends on the top - if its very lively, a heavier bridge might improve the sound.

And clearly there are limits either way. A very thin top with a tiny banjo bridge will sound like a banjo, while a top with a really heavy bridge might be close to silent. Within the "workable" range it's a trade-off, as with all instrument building.

FWIW my own building style favours light bridges, but I know some builders of good ukes who prefer them heavier, especially on softwood tops.
 
stevepetergal said:
Do you expect the fretboard to vibrate?? I'm lost.
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You are not alone. But this brings up something that has long puzzled me: Do the neck and fretboard influence the sound of the instrument? I used to think that no way it influences the sound of the box. Now I'm not so sure. As a matter of fact, yes it does but I have no idea why or how. Go figure. It is one of the subities of instrument building. Bottom line: the neck vibrates too (doh). The whole thing vibrates. But to try and control it? Way, way beyond my feeble efforts.
 
sequoia said:
You are not alone. But this brings up something that has long puzzled me: Do the neck and fretboard influence the sound of the instrument? I used to think that no way it influences the sound of the box. Now I'm not so sure. As a matter of fact, yes it does but I have no idea why or how. Go figure. It is one of the subities of instrument building. Bottom line: the neck vibrates too (doh). The whole thing vibrates. But to try and control it? Way, way beyond my feeble efforts.
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I would think the stiffness of the neck and fretboard would affect the sound. The more the string moves anything but the soundboard, the less energy there is to move the soundboard.
Whether there's some optimum stiffness to generate a pleasing sound would be hard to say.
 
Jim Yates said:
I have read about compensated nuts, but the concept eludes me. It would only work on open strings. I would think that once you fret a string, or put on a capo, whatever you've done to the nut would make no difference.
Could someone explain the concept to me?
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It changes the tension of the open string. Shortening the string length at the nut lowers the tension to bring the string in tune. If a fretted note was previously sharp, lowering the tension should make it flatter.
 
stevepetergal said:
When you say "a surface that is supposed vibrate" do you mean the nut? "Vibating path through the fretboard"? Do you expect the fretboard to vibrate?? I'm lost.
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I think it is in The Guitarbook by Tom Wheeler where some of the guys he´s met, a luthier claims that ebony is superior to rosewood in the fretboard for the projection. But I imho, would say it is pure bullsh*t to even mention that because the differences (if any?) would be so extremely small for sure.
So, the conclusion would be, lost? -Yes indeed!
 
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