Neck Grain Direction

mike_tatt

Active member
Joined
Apr 26, 2019
Messages
41
Reaction score
0
Hi

First post here - from a novice Ukulele builder - and in the process of building my first instruments.

This might be a an old Chestnut - I did find some stuff in the Archive - but a simple clarification would help me out.

I've managed to get hold of a decent piece of Sapele for my necks.

I've overlaid on a pic of the wood - Hopefully the pics explain better than I can !

If I cut the necks in what seems the natural direction with the grain - I can get Four necks.

Neck_Cut_View_1.jpg

If I cut with the necks side on - I can get Six

Neck_Cut_View_2.jpg

So - Question 1 - does it matter how I cut these for a soprano ukulele

I can probably cut an extra 2 from the 4 up option - but the grain would run in a different direction for Two of them.

Neck_Cut_View_3.jpg

So - Question 2 - I've never carved a real neck before** - does the direction of grain help or hinder neck carving. - If I had two with the grain direction running one way and Four the other - would I realistically notice any difference.

** I've made necks before - but I don't think planks - nails screws and glue really counts

I could get more necks if I stacked the heel and scarfed the neck - but I don't have a bandsaw to help with the re-sawing - and for my first time out - I think that single piece necks are probably a bit easier to master.

(If I had a decent bandsaw - I'd probably slice this piece for tops, backs and sides - then find a decent plank for the necks)

ALSO - just a thanks to everyone who has contributed to this forum - I've been following for a while now - and joined a couple of months ago - I've learned lots from your experience - and hopefully one day - I'll be in a position to offer advice to others.

Cheers
Mike
 
Cut a piece of scrap timber into a thin cross section then try to break it along the grain, then try across it.

That should answer your question.
 
There are two considerations here - stability and ease of carving. Stability is most important!

The most stable necks will have the grain running either vertical to the fretboard plane (vertical grain) or parallel to it (flat sawn). From these pictures (looking at the end grain) it seems that yours runs at about 45 degrees. I wouldn't let that worry me for most ukulele necks with sapele - it's pretty stable, and any slight twist in a short neck from releasing stresses in the wood as you carve it can just be planed out at the fingerboard surface. Once it's carved and settled, I doubt it will move again (unless you're very unlucky - wood is wood, and sometimes has a mind of its own).

If this were a long, thin neck, like a banjo, I'd cut the board lengthways along its thinnest dimension and then glue it together with the end grain angles opposing each other, like this: \\\\\\\/////// This make for a very stable neck, used so the fretboard surface is either the top or the bottom as I show the grain here - which you choose gives a different appearance to the back of the neck.

So far as carving is concerned, again the grain direction in sapele doesn't tell you much in my experience. Sapele has lots of reversing grain direction which makes it awkward to carve. Your blade of choice is happily slicing along and then suddenly digs in as the grain changes direction. Usually I find that each side of the neck prefers to be carved in a different direction, whatever the apparent grain direction seems to say! And there are always awkward spots. Just go steady and don't try to take too much off in any one go - you have to feel what the wood wants and go along with that.

I just rough out the shape with blades (knife, chisel, drawknife, spokeshave, whatever works best for that neck) and then do my final carving with a rasp which doesn't care about grain direction.

So I think you can go for the six necks from this one, so long as that leaves you enough margin for wood movement once the cutting and carving has released any internal stresses.
 
Mike, my personal rules for neck grain orientation are:

For electric solid body and acoustic steel string guitar with adjustable truss rod/s : Quartersawn or flatsawn stable neck woods.

For classical guitar : Quartersawn stable woods, with no more than 10 - 15 degrees deviation from true quarter unless fitting a carbon fibre reinforcing rod.

For large bodied ukulele: Quartersawn with next-to-no deviation unless fitting a carbon fibre reinforcing rod, where some deviation is permissible. (The fact that the fret board makes up a significant percentage of the total neck depth on ukulele helps to enhance the overall neck stability).

For small bodied ukulele: Quartersawn with little deviation unless the wood is mature, dry and stable, as may be found in aged recycled furniture or fittings, where a some deviation can be considered.

I find that most well made luthier or factory built ukulele necks are cut close to the quarter, whereas the necks of cheaper instruments are cut for yield and as long as they are (mostly) knot and defect-free, any orientation can be used.

The problem with using non-quartersawn neck wood is the unpredictability of possible lateral instability. This can lead to interesting long term alignment issues on long neck instruments, but is less of a problem for shorter necks. Some woods you think you can trust, other woods you know you shouldn't....the more you deviate from true quartersawn, the more the lottery odds increase.

You can probably get away with being less pedantic than this, but this is a place to start.
Hold out for other opinions...... if you are only building for yourself you can afford to experiment a little, but if you build for others, reputation and warranty claims must be considered.

In the photo, your billet seems to have diagonal grain, (or are those circular saw kerf marks I'm seeing).
 
Last edited:
Thanks for this Prof.

This is perfect - just the information that I’ve been looking for.

I hadn’t considered any movement when releasing the stress in the wood when carving, so I’ll keep this in mind when I’m sorting out my final cutting plane - and give myself a wider margin to work within.
Depending which way I cut there should be enough slack - and having the option of six necks is a bonus - should I mess one (or more ! !) up.

If there isn’t enough ‘wiggle room’ I’ll keep to four necks just to be sure as this is my first time.

I'm used to working with English and European oak - primarily for furniture restoration - so aware of the problems and surprises that a seemingly straight grained piece can give - but I’ve never worked with Sapele before so the tip about the alternating grain is welcome.

I also suppose using your idea of cutting and re-glueing \\\\\\\/////// will equalise the tension/ stresses - and could actually be a great way of adding some figure/ pattern to the neck if you select your wood well.
That’s got my mind ticking on the posibilties
I’ll certainly give this a shot when I’m a little further along the journey.

Again - many thanks for this

Cheers
Mike
 
Thanks for this Prof.

This is perfect - just the information that I’ve been looking for.

I hadn’t considered any movement when releasing the stress in the wood when carving, so I’ll keep this in mind when I’m sorting out my final cutting plane - and give myself a wider margin to work within.
Depending which way I cut there should be enough slack - and having the option of six necks is a bonus - should I mess one (or more ! !) up.

If there isn’t enough ‘wiggle room’ I’ll keep to four necks just to be sure as this is my first time.

I'm used to working with English and European oak - primarily for furniture restoration - so aware of the problems and surprises that a seemingly straight grained piece can give - but I’ve never worked with Sapele before so the tip about the alternating grain is welcome.

I also suppose using your idea of cutting and re-glueing \\\\\\\/////// will equalise the tension/ stresses - and could actually be a great way of adding some figure/ pattern to the neck if you select your wood well.
That’s got my mind ticking on the posibilties
I’ll certainly give this a shot when I’m a little further along the journey.

Again - many thanks for this

Cheers
Mike

This method also allows you to glue a thin, contrasting wood in between the 2 sapelle pieces as decoration.
 
Thanks Bazuku

Thanks for the feedback, great detail here and all appreciated.

These instruments are my first ‘serious’ ukuleles and at the moment - just for personal use and getting my skills re-honed.

If I ever started making them for others - I understand where you are coming from - always use the best materials you can - I’d expect it if I was purchasing - and as you say - it does cut down the chance of future problems.

Once I know that I can craft a ukulele to a standard I’d be happy with - and proud of - I’ll definitely be searching out some higher grade woods to work with.

The billet I’m using only cost GBP 6.50 - and the grain is pretty diagonal - the saw marks exaggerate the effect on the pics - - but still - not a prime piece.

It’s a while since I’ve had the opportunity to spend some time creating things with my hands rather than on a computer - and I’m looking at this a decent piece of learning piece - and if it all goes to hell in a handcart - at least I’m not too much poorer

Cheers
Mike
 
This method also allows you to glue a thin, contrasting wood in between the 2 sapelle pieces as decoration.

.. that was just what I was thinking - creative part of the brain is tingling now
 
Mike,
This is the beauty of UU.
Lots of opinions open up all avenues of thought.
My response was a little narrow and assumed that the available wood was a bit nearer to quartersawn.
I should also point out that every neck that I have made has been scarf joint and stacked heel, so I only buy shallow true quartersawn sticks with little or no run out. The exception to this is necks for solid bodies … I now buy them in from one of the big makers.
A one piece neck is usually a more difficult and expensive proposition when it comes to finding and selecting suitable billets.
You have a few options with ways to cut your wood... pick the best option (for your thinking) and go for it.
You'll certainly get more than six quid's worth of experience from it , no matter how it turns out.
 
Bazuku

I Have to agree on all fronts

This is a great forum - I'm amazed at the level of skills of the people who contribute - and their openness in sharing.

I've been considering stacking and scarfing as I move on - certainly more cost effective when after my first batch of necks - and the choice of available woods is wider.

I've decided to just cut four necks from the billet - it gives me plenty of wiggle room - allowing for thinks like any movement in the wood - when tension is released whilst carving - and my lack of much in the way of power tools.
It also gives be a good sized block left over for extrasBazuku

I Have to agree on all fronts

This is a great forum - I'm amazed at the level of skills of the people who contribute - and their openness in sharing.
Even the ‘disagreements’ have some humour to them.
If I can come anywhere close to the ukuleles made by the people here - I’ll be delighted.

I've been considering stacking and scarfing as I move on - certainly more cost effective when after my first batch of necks - and as you say - the choice of available woods is wider.

The low cost of this wood has just made be thing sod it - have a go at one piece necks - see what happens - the absolute worse that can happen is that I end up sawing them up into strips for kerfing - even then I’d be quids in and have learned lots.

For this first run - I’ve decided to just cut four necks from the billet - it gives me plenty of wiggle room - allowing for any movement in the wood - (mentioned by Eclipseme) - Grain direction will (should) match and I should be able to get into a carving ‘rhythm’ if that makes sense - before trying other methods.

It also gives be a good sized block left over for bridges and such - and I need some hardwood for making tools I’m planning to make - rosette cutters and the like.

Cheers
Mike
 
- and I need some hardwood for making tools I’m planning to make - rosette cutters and the like.

Mike,
I have made a few rosette/sound hole cutters from various hardwoods over the years and have found that the locking screws for the hand-ground blades and centre shaft can tend to split the grain unless loosened before storage. The last one, made a few years ago (uke sound hole cutter), is holding up OK so far. Any further attempts will be made from some 19-ply hardwood sheet that I came across recently in a workshop cleanup. Don't be discouraged by this, just make sure that the wood is not checking and that the grain direction is not square-on to the adjustment screw holes. My designs are very simple …. ask for a pic if you are interested. Hand grinding and honing the blades is the hardest part of the process. I made mine from HSS drill blanks.
 
Last edited:
Hi Bazuku
I've just made my first hole / rosette cutter
First attempt / prototype was basically a piece of old oak with simple some slots - M8 bolt in a tapped hole to hold the blade - I just wanted to test an old plane blade to see it would work - before creating something more practical functional.
Worked okay to be honest - blade needs grinding as it's too thick - but the principle is sound .
I was thinking of making a brass insert for the blade - but that might have to wait until I get a more time on my hands.

As a stop gap I've bought a tank cutter for a couple of quid and made a blade from some old tool steel to replace the junk that was fitted to it.
Blade is a bit rough to look at - but after a bit of work it's got a very keen edge.

I'll finish this off tomorrow - weather permitting - as I'm getting ready to start cutting my first sound holes ! ! !

I've been using plenty of ply recently - building a form/ mould - sander thicknesser - but hadn't though of using it for other tools.
I suppose it would be pretty strong if you get hold of good quality ply and would be less prone to splitting because of the lamination.

Maybe we should start a thread on hime made tools - although I think Mr Timms might win out with some of his inventions

Cheers
Mike
 
Mike,
It looks like you are already well stocked for good ideas. It took me a while to realise that the wood screws I originally employed to secure the blades were clunky in use, so it was only then that I tapped out the holes for machine threads (M6). This made the feel much better for fine adjustment and helped with the splitting problem as well. I also have a tank washer cutter but gave up on it quite early after removing an ugly chunk of knuckle (blood stains ruin Adirondack).
The drill blank cutters had an unforeseen bonus ….. if you experiment and get the speed right, they have the effect of cauterising the cut enough to give it a very attractive, smooth, and slightly darkened edge that needs no finishing. On the downside, if the speed is too high they will char pale softwood quite easily… smoke is the give away here. Because the tips of the cutters are so fine, heat dissipation is slow and causes bluing at the cutting edge….. I’ve persisted with them because the cut is so precise and clean. Getting the shape right for purpose is time consuming and frustrating.
I would use solid hardwood over coarse laminated plywood. I have made a few tools from (very fine) 21-ply/29mm and 19-ply/25mm European plywood that came from transportation packing supports for expensive and heavy medical imaging machinery. I wasted (?) most of it making boat fittings ….. only a few pieces remain and are now treated like gold.
 
A few wood/plywood home-made creations …. crude but effective.

P1010350.jpg
 
Last edited:
They look really good - a lot neater than my attempts.

My excuse is that I'm still in the prototyping phase.

I’m been working on a revised rosette cutter - I’ll try to post a pic when It’s cleaned up
The first run was okay - if a bit rough around the edges - but I was just using scraps to test the blade angles -

I ended up with a piece of rosewood inlaid into a piece of spruce - and it sanded level - no horrid gaps - so a step in the right direction.


I've started to work on the necks now - I managed to get hold of a very very cheap bandsaw to help out - (did put a good blade on it though - that made a huge difference) - I was going to just use a coping saw and panel saw - but I'm often chasing my tail for time - and I wanted to crack on.

Once I popped the templates on the wood - I worked out that I could get six necks pretty easily - I've rough cut three out to start - the grain on one is nice and fairly true - the other two angle off a bit at the head but the necks themselves are not bad at all.

These are my first - so still in the land of experimentation - once I've learned a few lessons - I'll invest in some quarter sawn stock.

I might cut the second half of the billet into boards and laminate to get a better stress spread across the neck - I also have a spare piece of rosewood that would look nice in the middle - maybe that’s running before I can walk though - I’ll see how the first necks come out first.

I split the billet a week ago and left it to see if there was any twist - it’s been sat in a summerhouse - lots of temperature and humidity changes - no movement at all.

It’s First time I've used Sapele - and as mentioned earlier in this thread - the grain does seem to move around.

Such a joy to plane though - I’m using by dads old Stanley smoothing plane - the first plane I ever used as a child - it’s over 60 years old - and now it’s mine :) .

Trued up the top and headstock face to start - had to reduce the cut depth to a whisker on some areas where the grain seemed to reverse - more of a plane scrape than a plane shave - I’m pretty chuffed with the outcome.

IMG_3231.jpg
At least I know I can still plane as well as I used to .

Rain stopped play today - so I'll leave the blanks for a few days - to see if they are stable as well.

If they are still square & level - I’ll get the chisels out and give them some shape.

Cheers
Mike
 
Mike, those necks look fine. If the diagonal grain on the heads disturbs you, it is a simple matter to put a thin veneer on the front and back, as the factories do. The grain (of the necks) looks straight and pretty. Leave them a while longer and check for rotational distortion by placing them face down on your saw table to see if they rock diagonally. If they do, they may have to be sidelined for a much longer period and trued before use, as rotation of the neck is a nightmare for both builder and player.
[OFF TOPIC]
With regard to your “rain stopped play today” comment, I'm hoping that will not apply to Edgebaston ….. that one is developing into a real cracker.
 
the 6 neck way- more necks, better grain direction.

You could probably get about 10 necks out of that btw
 
Thanks Bazuku
I quite like the grain on the head - I'll see what they are like when I've polished them up - and I'm glad the necks are pretty straight -I wiggled the cuts around to try to get the best grain in the neck section - at last - a plan that worked .
Not thinking of veneering at this point - unless I decide on inlaying a logo - but the jury is out on that at the moment - I might experiment over winter. I've done quite a bit of veneer work and inlaying in a past job - but no where near the standard that some of the luthiers on here achieve.

Rain stop play - that's my fundamental problem of not having a workshop - I do most of the creative work in my garden. Living in the NW UK - the summer days have varied form soundboard warping +30 degrees to torrential rain -

I wish that the rain stop play had hit Edgebaston as well - the shame of an Ashes defeat weighs heavy - and there are a few more games left in the series for the mighty poms to get our acts together - just like we did in the ICC World Cup :)
 
Thanks Beau

I've split the billet and cut three necks to start with
If these work out okay - and they seem okay so far - I'll probably do the same with the second piece
Although I'm liking the idea of sawing it as boards and stacking the heel / scarfing the neck - that will give me four - maybe five.

Cheers
Mike
 
Mike,
There are many contributors to this forum whose work leaves me gobsmacked. It's hard not to get discouraged and instead be motivated by the standard of their work. My excuse is that I'm too old to get to those eerie heights, and as old habits are hard to break, I plod on doggedly doing my own thing. My builds are typically traditional, plain and 'blingless' except for fret marker inlays, .... binding is “deluxe”.
Like you, I do a fair bit of work in the back yard (garden). Many years of amateur woodwork has made me 'dust averse' and although I have dust extraction on my stationary machines, all my hand sanding is done outdoors on a towel atop of my Green Waste bin where prevailing sea breezes help to disperse the dust. My pedestal drill and table saw are dragged outside on casters in an effort to keep the shed clean, as my instrument building has to share the space with several “clean” hobbies. Outside work is doable all year round here as temperatures vary from around 10 C to 40 C, with typical RH from 60 to above 80. Dry boxes are needed to maintain RH within building specifications. My current two builds are not commissions and have been dragging, with no immediate end in sight …. sometimes life gets in the way (motivation injection required).
Good luck for the 'Ashes'.
 
Top Bottom