Returning a New Uke :-( Online purchase -> a long, cautionary tale

WebParrot (s2)

Wisconsin, U.S.A.
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First, and important…this isn’t a criticism of the vendor. I’m only sharing my experience and pointing out two disappointments. I hope that anyone who makes a purchase will consider asking a few more questions before hitting the [BUY] button.

Not to bury the lead… I returned the uke within the ‘no fault’ return policy and had the return shipping deducted from the refund. There were two important reasons for the return.

This was an expensive instrument (for me, $800-900) from a reputable builder and dealership. I have two other instruments from the same builder and also purchased from the dealer twice before in the last year.

First, thanks to everyone in the forum who has commented on threads involving “dead notes” and “wolf notes” … Having that knowledge and background helped me make the decision to return the uke. [I have two other instruments that display this flaw, both were improved (though not completely mitigated)n by suggestions of trying differ string sets.]. When I got this uke, after a quick, admiring inspection I tuned it and did some fretboard warmups. Two notes on the upper five frets had little or no sustain; dead. And on the 14, 15, 16th frets on the low G sustain disappeared little by little as I was ascending. F & F# were the notes most noticeable.

I tried four different sets of strings, including the originals. Different tensions, composition, and diameter. Worth Browns helped “slightly” on the C string, 5th fret, but was still noticeable. Replacing the Low G with a high g resulted in no improvement.

Second, the gloss finish wasn’t the same on all surfaces. The sides and back were clearly mirror-like, as expected. But the sound board had small dimples at most of the pores. Most people wouldn’t notice it, but I did. It was a production flaw made notable when comparing with the other surfaces. By comparison, my other uke -from the same builder- had a flawless finish on all surfaces (same price range). So I thought my expectation of a flawless finish were reasonable.

The policy of the dealership was that a defective return would result in a full refund, NOT having return shipping deducted from the refund. The dealer’s representative indicated that the instrument wasn’t defective; dead notes and finish issue were not defects, but flaws. Defects affect playability in some significant way.

In their return policy, the dealership clearly points out that defective instruments qualify for a full refund. I simply didn’t understand want a defect is/was. Consider that the first uke purchased from them… same builder, same price, didn’t have these “flaws!” And, of my five other ukes, only one has dead notes (and only in one upper position) with those instruments costing $250-$350.

Finally, the shipping and insurance fee amounted to $46. The dealer provided the return shipping label; I did not choose the shipper or value of insurance. By comparison, when I purchased a less expensive uke from them, I was charged under $26 shipping.

My recommendation. Read and understand the return/refund policy and conditions outlined therein. Ask for clarification of any terms that might disqualify you from a refund of any kind. Be willing to pay the ‘fees’ before you hit the [BUY] button. Me… I’m not buying from this dealership, or any online unless I can view, hear, play the instrument!

Thanks for “listening” everyone. No comments expected. I’m worn out!
 
...dead notes and finish issue were not defects, but flaws. Defects affect playability in some significant way.

I can sympathize. Sellers are more more willing to sell than to accept returns. Just be thankful that you could return it and get most of your money back.

Shipping charges can be nasty. I've paid high shipping charges and gotten very slow shipping. I've also paid reasonable charges and gotten two day delivery from CA, HI, and New Zealand. Charging a lot for cheap shipping is another way to increase profit.
 
First, and important…this isn’t a criticism of the vendor. I’m only sharing my experience and pointing out two disappointments. I hope that anyone who makes a purchase will consider asking a few more questions before hitting the [BUY] button.

Not to bury the lead… I returned the uke within the ‘no fault’ return policy and had the return shipping deducted from the refund. There were two important reasons for the return.

This was an expensive instrument (for me, $800-900) from a reputable builder and dealership. I have two other instruments from the same builder and also purchased from the dealer twice before in the last year.

First, thanks to everyone in the forum who has commented on threads involving “dead notes” and “wolf notes” … Having that knowledge and background helped me make the decision to return the uke. [I have two other instruments that display this flaw, both were improved (though not completely mitigated)n by suggestions of trying differ string sets.]. When I got this uke, after a quick, admiring inspection I tuned it and did some fretboard warmups. Two notes on the upper five frets had little or no sustain; dead. And on the 14, 15, 16th frets on the low G sustain disappeared little by little as I was ascending. F & F# were the notes most noticeable.

I tried four different sets of strings, including the originals. Different tensions, composition, and diameter. Worth Browns helped “slightly” on the C string, 5th fret, but was still noticeable. Replacing the Low G with a high g resulted in no improvement.

Second, the gloss finish wasn’t the same on all surfaces. The sides and back were clearly mirror-like, as expected. But the sound board had small dimples at most of the pores. Most people wouldn’t notice it, but I did. It was a production flaw made notable when comparing with the other surfaces. By comparison, my other uke -from the same builder- had a flawless finish on all surfaces (same price range). So I thought my expectation of a flawless finish were reasonable.

The policy of the dealership was that a defective return would result in a full refund, NOT having return shipping deducted from the refund. The dealer’s representative indicated that the instrument wasn’t defective; dead notes and finish issue were not defects, but flaws. Defects affect playability in some significant way.

In their return policy, the dealership clearly points out that defective instruments qualify for a full refund. I simply didn’t understand want a defect is/was. Consider that the first uke purchased from them… same builder, same price, didn’t have these “flaws!” And, of my five other ukes, only one has dead notes (and only in one upper position) with those instruments costing $250-$350.

Finally, the shipping and insurance fee amounted to $46. The dealer provided the return shipping label; I did not choose the shipper or value of insurance. By comparison, when I purchased a less expensive uke from them, I was charged under $26 shipping.

My recommendation. Read and understand the return/refund policy and conditions outlined therein. Ask for clarification of any terms that might disqualify you from a refund of any kind. Be willing to pay the ‘fees’ before you hit the [BUY] button. Me… I’m not buying from this dealership, or any online unless I can view, hear, play the instrument!

Thanks for “listening” everyone. No comments expected. I’m worn out!

That's why I use credit cards and Paypal for purchases. Their "defect" vs "flaw" distinction wouldn't hold much water when the refund amount was disputed. You are way too kind to them. If more of the customers they cheat disputed the deduction, the vendor would find it is an expensive and time consuming endeavor. Chargebacks carry a service fee of $35, in addition to the time to fight their losing battle. That uke had 2 separate defects.
 
I can sympathize. Sellers are more more willing to sell than to accept returns. Just be thankful that you could return it and get most of your money back.

Shipping charges can be nasty. I've paid high shipping charges and gotten very slow shipping. I've also paid reasonable charges and gotten two day delivery from CA, HI, and New Zealand. Charging a lot for cheap shipping is another way to increase profit.

I would not be thankful. I would ensure they rued the day they tried to cheat me by both contesting the charge for a full refund, and by leaving reviews on their fb page, BBB, and reporting to FTC.
 
I returned a Romero Creations TT6 to California and the shipping and insurance was $150 USPS (UPS and FedX were more), so you got off easy! Having owned a couple new instruments with wolf tones—e.g., really loud F on the 1st fret of the C string—I noticed most of the notes disappeared or diminished after 6 months or so. However, the couple dead notes didn't change much. A luthier friend of mine explained that the builder didn't bother to listen to the instrument and adjust the soundboard to fix the inconsistent notes. I watched him fix such a problem in one of my guitars and he used sandpaper and a finger plane to shave various parts of the soundboard and braces to even up the response—and it worked perfectly!
 
I returned a Romero Creations TT6 to California and the shipping and insurance was $150 USPS (UPS and FedX were more), so you got off easy! Having owned a couple new instruments with wolf tones—e.g., really loud F on the 1st fret of the C string—I noticed most of the notes disappeared or diminished after 6 months or so. However, the couple dead notes didn't change much. A luthier friend of mine explained that the builder didn't bother to listen to the instrument and adjust the soundboard to fix the inconsistent notes. I watched him fix such a problem in one of my guitars and he used sandpaper and a finger plane to shave various parts of the soundboard and braces to even up the response—and it worked perfectly!

I have often wondered about that. Thanks for posting this Peter. Amazing, their ability to hear and adjust such small inconsistencies in the build to fix the problems.
 
It really makes you appreciate the easy returns when this happens. I bought a uke for around $200 including shipping and returned it only because I didn't like it enough. Paying for 2 way shipping, a restocking fee and only a partial refund on customs charges, I barely got half my money back. I contemplated selling it privately, but in the end, decided I probably wouldn't do any better.
 
It really makes you appreciate the easy returns when this happens. I bought a uke for around $200 including shipping and returned it only because I didn't like it enough. Paying for 2 way shipping, a restocking fee and only a partial refund on customs charges, I barely got half my money back. I contemplated selling it privately, but in the end, decided I probably wouldn't do any better.

The cost of returning something is always a consideration. With Amazon, there is no cost, but most others charge. It can easily get to a point where I'll decide to keep it or sell it.
 
I would not be thankful. I would ensure they rued the day they tried to cheat me by both contesting the charge for a full refund, and by leaving reviews on their fb page, BBB, and reporting to FTC.

I thoughtfully disagree. My intent of this post was to create an awareness. As a customer you deserve to know what the return policy is and on what it is based. I'm not trying to punish, expose, reveal, or otherwise shame the dealer/builder. It would be nonsense to waste the time of BBB or FTC (?) with such a petty claim. While I disagree with their decision to categorize my issues as flaws, it's their decision. As I've read other posts on dead/wolf notes, there are many opinions on why they occur and whether it's a normal occurrence or something that can be avoided or repaired.
 
It really makes you appreciate the easy returns when this happens. I bought a uke for around $200 including shipping and returned it only because I didn't like it enough. Paying for 2 way shipping, a restocking fee and only a partial refund on customs charges, I barely got half my money back. I contemplated selling it privately, but in the end, decided I probably wouldn't do any better.

And, I will say the return process was "easy". Aside from the time to document my reason/complaint, repack, print the label, and take to FedEx, it went fine.

I have since visited a half-dozen "popular" on-line dealers and looked for their shipping and return policies. Only 2 of the 6 detailed the process and mentioned they would differentiate charging return shipping if other than a 'defect' were the reason.

Again, my intent was to provide a cautionary tale and encourage customers to engage IN ADVANCE of a purchase. Ask for examples of 'returnable defects' and a differentiation between flaws and defects. Phone calls are a nice personal touch, but followup with an email confirming the discussion. Perhaps the existence of this sort of communication and documentation will cause the person doing setup to increase the awareness for such "flaws!"
 
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And, I will say the return process was "easy". Aside from the time to document my reason/complaint, repack, print the label, and take to FedEx, it went fine.

I have sense visited a half-dozen "popular" on-line dealers and looked for their shipping and return policies. Only 2 of the 6 detailed the process and mentioned they would differentiate charging return shipping if other than a 'defect' were the reason.

Again, my intent was to provide a cautionary tale and encourage customers to engage IN ADVANCE of a purchase. Ask for examples of 'returnable defects' and a differentiation between flaws and defects. Phone calls are a nice personal touch, but followup with an email confirming the discussion. Perhaps the existence of this sort of communication and documentation will cause the person doing setup to increase the awareness for such "flaws!"

Opening up my wallet for things like that is never easy! Glad your experience was different. ;)
 
I've taken into consideration the return policies when making a purchase. Sometimes, that stops me from buying. Sometimes I want to try a particular ukulele enough that I tell myself that, worse case scenario, it will be like a rental fee to try that ukulele. (Though of course, I hope it works out well and there is no need for a return.) Depending on how much that "rental fee" could be, though, even that might stop me.

I appreciate Web_Parrot making us aware on the possible disagreements on what is a flaw vs. a defect, and how that might effect return policies. In my mind, there was always a much clearer line on whether the seller should accept the return at their cost, (and shouldn't have sent it out in the first place), so this is a good heads up.
 
Speaking as a former music shop owner (25 years), the profit margin for small shops is razor thin. The cost of paying return shipping plus wholesale net can easily render a loss when you sell a retuned instrument. A big business like Amazon has a lower wholesale cost due to high volume buying and a sweet deal with shippers, so they can squeeze out a profit despite a generous return policy. Hence, customer pays return shipping for most smaller shops.

I don't think I've ever seen a new instrument without some minor flaws, albeit we used to intercept defective ones most of the time before they went out the door.
 
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I thoughtfully disagree. My intent of this post was to create an awareness. As a customer you deserve to know what the return policy is and on what it is based. I'm not trying to punish, expose, reveal, or otherwise shame the dealer/builder. It would be nonsense to waste the time of BBB or FTC (?) with such a petty claim. While I disagree with their decision to categorize my issues as flaws, it's their decision. As I've read other posts on dead/wolf notes, there are many opinions on why they occur and whether it's a normal occurrence or something that can be avoided or repaired.

I understand your empathy for the vendor. However, legally, the onus is on them to inform their use of a different definition of "defect". Unless wolf notes and an imperfect finish were the design of that uke, it is defective. If they choose to have a different definition, then they must inform of this in their policy. According to consumer laws, it is not the responsibility of the consumer to verify what vendors would use to exclude returns, but of the vendor to clearly state them. Those laws are to protect us. Rather than considering it petty, I personally consider it my civic duty to inform when companies violate consumer laws.
 
That's why I use credit cards and Paypal for purchases.

One of my favorite features of my AMEX card is how they stand behind the consumer. Four or five times in the last 25 years I've been rooked by an online vendor and AMEX has come to the rescue.
 
I bought a ukulele that had been made a number of years prior by a custom guitar luthier. It was a disaster when I received it... sunken soundboard, poor finish, etc. It is really easy to to a tough stance when you’re not the one that has to get your money back. I gladly paid the $50 to get it back to the seller.

For every case of seller’s fault there are just as many or more that are caused by the buyer. I’m sure sellers get stuck with a lot of instruments that a buyer wanted to send back after the buyer caused some damage. It goes both ways.

John
 
Thanks to everyone for their thoughtful comments. I just thought to add that ... I did use PayPal and am considering using one of their benefits, "Return Shipping on Us." Under certain conditions PayPal will reimburse 'members' up to $30 of return shipping charges. As I read the "terms and conditions" this isn't a hit to the retailer/seller, but a benefit of PayPal. It says it's limited to United States customers. Those of you in other countries might inquire directly for any similar benefit.

Here's a link to the US page. Scroll down to the FAQ.

https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/returns/terms

I'm waiting for my refund to show up in my PayPal account ( I think holiday processing might have slowed the vendor's systems ! ) to start the refund process.

Again, thanks for listening :) and sharing.
 
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I hope PayPal comes through for you.

This experience brings to mind two things that I have read on this forum:

1) Up to 20-30% of ukes as they come from the manufacturer are defective -- even expensive ukes. This $800-900 instrument is what I would call expensive. In the current era of computerized manufacturing processes, I'm amazed at that level of inconsistency.

2) "Reputable" dealers thoroughly and carefully inspect all ukes and either reject, or repair, the flawed ones. That didn't seem to happen here. And as an aside, its never been clear to me what happens to the "rejected" instruments.
 
And as an aside, its never been clear to me what happens to the "rejected" instruments.

When we ran a music shop, what happens to rejected instruments depended on the manufacturer, wholesaler and value of the instrument. We used to sell entry level ukuleles called "Hilo" and they had about a 50% defective rate. By defective I mean unadjustable and unrepairable. KMC, the wholesaler, merely gave us a credit and suggested we run them over with a truck! No need to mail back. It was rare to have an unrepairable defect on more expensive instruments—e.g., Japan made Takamine or a Spain made Alhambra—but the few we got across 25 years of business were returned to the wholesaler. For example, a heel warp was considered an unrepairable defect but a bad pickup was simply pulled and replaced at the dealer level. KMC sold returned Takamines, Ovations and Hammers for cheap as "seconds" and dealers were allowed to sell them below MAP but were required by contract to list them as a second.
 
I thoughtfully disagree. My intent of this post was to create an awareness. As a customer you deserve to know what the return policy is and on what it is based. I'm not trying to punish, expose, reveal, or otherwise shame the dealer/builder. It would be nonsense to waste the time of BBB or FTC (?) with such a petty claim. While I disagree with their decision to categorize my issues as flaws, it's their decision. As I've read other posts on dead/wolf notes, there are many opinions on why they occur and whether it's a normal occurrence or something that can be avoided or repaired.

I just want to comment and compliment you for a very open and diplomatic post and attitude. If more people took your mature and level headed approach to life the world would be a much better place. In the end it’s only money and they print more of it everyday. Good things will come your way, Karma always evens things out.
 
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