Changing a Compensated Bridge...

WebParrot (s2) · Dec 13, 2019

EDIT: Compensated SADDLE ! (NOT bridge). apologies for the misleading heading.

Recently ordered a Kanile'a K2 and am waiting with high anticipation. I'm curious about the included compensated (bridge) saddle. It comes strung gCEA. if I decide to try restringing with a Low G, what -if anything- will be the effect on intonation? If yes, where will it be noticeable?

I've sent Kanile'a an inquiry, but based on their lack of response in previous inquiries, I'm not holding my breath! The gang here at UU is way more dependable...

Yes, I realize that there's countless posts on intonation. And I expect a lot of "don't worry about it... just play" retorts. I just wonder, though... if the builder includes compensated saddles for all their builds, it must be for a reason, right?

Doug W · Dec 13, 2019

My guess is that the low G will be a bit out of tune up the fretboard. My suggestion is to play it for a bit the way it arrives to make sure that it is playing in tune, then put your low G in.

The string slot in the nut for the low G will need to be widened at the very least or better yet, buy material for a new nut and saddle for the low G. Keep the high g nut and saddle squirreled away somewhere.

So try out your new string before changing anything. If the intonation is off, you have the opportunity to learn new stuff.

WebParrot (s2) · Dec 15, 2019

Doug W said:
My guess is that the low G will be a bit out of tune up the fretboard. My suggestion is to play it for a bit the way it arrives to make sure that it is playing in tune, then put your low G in.

The string slot in the nut for the low G will need to be widened at the very least or better yet, buy material for a new nut and saddle for the low G. Keep the high g nut and saddle squirreled away somewhere.

So try out your new string before changing anything. If the intonation is off, you have the opportunity to learn new stuff.

Sounds like a reasonable approach.

I did something similar with a Kala Bari but for a different reason. It arrived with a below-2.5 action and both wound strings (DG) buzzed up to the 6th fret. And I noticed that if I moved the strings from side to side on the saddle there was a wear-groove. The nut had also been cut pretty deep (of note: made noticeable because the set-up person must have sprayed lemon oil on the fret board and the liquid seeped from between the windings and onto the nut!!). I'm pretty sure this was a display model, or perhaps a return. While no other issues, I wouldn't expect an expert to do a setup like this on an out-of-box instrument.

A n y how.... For $5 Kala sent me new replacement set. I cut the nut for high d and sanded the new saddle to shake the buzz. When I switch back to the low D string the original nut goes back in. I also switched to flat wound on the D and an unwound G.

Thanks for your thoughts.

bazuku · Dec 16, 2019

Most organic saddles (and nuts) can be re-profiled using a rice grain sized deposit of sodium bicarbonate, a drop of super glue, a mini file and a little elbow grease. A tiny 'dam wall' of tape can be fashioned to hold the bicarb in place until it sets (almost instantaneous) .
The result should be permanent/indefinite, but in any case it can be expected to last well past the point of your getting the intonation sorted, and settling on the correct profile for the cutting of a replacement saddle.
There is online info on this technique, mainly for guitar nut repair.

Rakelele · Dec 16, 2019

As much as I like my Kanilea, my own experience with their saddles is that they just cut off regular guitar saddles without giving much thought. If you look at those saddles, their compensation doesn't make any sense in any possible ukulele setup: Why would the first string be placed further away from the nut than the fourth string? When I asked them for a replacement saddle, they just sent me a regular guitar saddle that I had to cut off by myself (and charged me $21 USD)! The good thing is that it doesn't seem to matter much: I have used both their compensated saddle and a straight saddle, and both intonated about the same...

WebParrot (s2) · Dec 17, 2019

Rakelele said:
As much as I like my Kanilea, my own experience with their saddles is that they just cut off regular guitar saddles without giving much thought. If you look at those saddles, their compensation doesn't make any sense in any possible ukulele setup: Why would the first string be placed further away from the nut than the fourth string? When I asked them for a replacement saddle, they just sent me a regular guitar saddle that I had to cut off by myself (and charged me $21 USD)! The good thing is that it doesn't seem to matter much: I have used both their compensated saddle and a straight saddle, and both intonated about the same...

Ouch!..$21 The should have shipped a luthier with it

Thanks for sharing your experience. (Regrettably) it sent me on a deep dive into the wonderful world of internet searches. Most of what I learned came from the craft-of-luthier diatribes on compensated saddles & bridges in the guitar world. Most of what I found dealt with wound strings (EADGXX) and didn't seem to mirror any of the design that I see in the Kanile'a saddle. Secondarily, (from what I could glean) the shorter the scale, the less the impact (need) for/of compensation of the saddle.

Thanks again for your comment. Truly gave me inspiration to pause, play, and listen. If I ever get a reply from Kanile'a I'll share.

WebParrot (s2) · Dec 17, 2019

bazuku said:
Most organic saddles (and nuts) can be re-profiled using a rice grain sized deposit of sodium bicarbonate, a drop of super glue, a mini file and a little elbow grease. A tiny 'dam wall' of tape can be fashioned to hold the bicarb in place until it sets (almost instantaneous) .
The result should be permanent/indefinite, but in any case it can be expected to last well past the point of your getting the intonation sorted, and settling on the correct profile for the cutting of a replacement saddle.
There is online info on this technique, mainly for guitar nut repair.

Thanks... I've seen and read about this 'repair' and am keeping related links in my repair library. While not anticipating any/further intonation matters, it's nice to know there's common remedies.

Johnny GDS · Dec 25, 2019

I agree that the nut slot depth will be a more meaningful adjustment than saddle compensation. The thicker Low G will sit too tall in the High G nut slot. If you don't have a set of gauged nut files, I would take it to someone that does. That should be a very inexpensive adjustment ($10 or less).

Have them use a file that matches the gauge of the Low G string you prefer, and then run a High G gauge file in the bottom of the new Low G slot. This will allow you to return to High G any time without having to change the nut out or fill and re-cut the slot. You will end up with a proper width Low G slot that has a very shallow High G channel in the bottom.

I would suggest a "smoothwound" Low G (like an Oasis) which has a smaller diameter and will therefore intonate more closely to the original High G string (from the perspective of the saddle). You could, of course, compensate the saddle (by leaning it in the direction of longer string length) but there may not be a whole lot of value in that adjustment. I've found that strings alone can vary as much as 30% in intonation from string to string and pack to pack. By this I mean that if you took 5 G strings from 5 packs of the same brand and model, you would experience very different intonation qualities. I consider this phenomenon to be a result of how the string stretches (not evenly) along it's length. Conversely, with a high nut slot, all those strings would be significantly sharp in the first 5 frets.

Anyhow, good luck with it! Sounds like you are about to get an awesome instrument!!!

WebParrot (s2) · Dec 26, 2019

Johnny GDS said:
I agree that the nut slot depth will be a more meaningful adjustment than saddle compensation. The thicker Low G will sit too tall in the High G nut slot. If you don't have a set of gauged nut files, I would take it to someone that does. That should be a very inexpensive adjustment ($10 or less).

Have them use a file that matches the gauge of the Low G string you prefer, and then run a High G gauge file in the bottom of the new Low G slot. This will allow you to return to High G any time without having to change the nut out or fill and re-cut the slot. You will end up with a proper width Low G slot that has a very shallow High G channel in the bottom.

I would suggest a "smoothwound" Low G (like an Oasis) which has a smaller diameter and will therefore intonate more closely to the original High G string (from the perspective of the saddle). You could, of course, compensate the saddle (by leaning it in the direction of longer string length) but there may not be a whole lot of value in that adjustment. I've found that strings alone can vary as much as 30% in intonation from string to string and pack to pack. By this I mean that if you took 5 G strings from 5 packs of the same brand and model, you would experience very different intonation qualities. I consider this phenomenon to be a result of how the string stretches (not evenly) along it's length. Conversely, with a high nut slot, all those strings would be significantly sharp in the first 5 frets.

Anyhow, good luck with it! Sounds like you are about to get an awesome instrument!!!

While I sincerely appreciate the additional information and see that others will benefit from the process guidance on modifying the nut ... I'm still kind-of hanging out, looking for the wisdom of why there's a compensated (xxxx) SADDLE - that SEEMS like a contradiction when a player can change between significantly different diameter-ed strings.

This isn't a criticism of your reply! I'm just getting more and more curious as to why there's a compensated SADDLE - for nearly all Kanale'a (and Romero) ukes. Are they really compensating .... something?

Kekani · Dec 27, 2019

Web_Parrot said:
I'm just getting more and more curious as to why there's a compensated bridge - for nearly all Kanale'a (and Romero) ukes. Are they really compensating .... something?

Just to be clear, from the comments above, we're talking about compensated Saddles, and not bridges.

Unfortunately, we lost Paul earlier this year. Fortunately, his page is still up, and you should get the "why" that you're asking for.
http://www.lutherie.net/saddle_angle.html

If you're asking why for an ukulele? Same as above.

If you want something from the underground, the topic has been discussed.
https://forum.ukuleleunderground.co...ed-saddle-necessary-to-get-perfect-intonation

And we touch on it here, from a different angle (pun intended):
https://forum.ukuleleunderground.com/showthread.php?104237-Outside-of-the-box

And if you really want to search, Mike Chock designed a reversible saddle for one of his Kasha bridges.

WebParrot (s2) · Dec 28, 2019

Thanks... really sloppy lack of editing on my part. I truly intended to refer to SADDLES (and made a few edits to my earlier replies). One of the many Luther BLOGS and postings I read have given a lot of technical insight to me. I also went to an actual Library and discovered a half dozen luthier books (not just for this topic) to look into similar questions for violins (motivated by an Italian YT channel that artfully shows the craftsman making a high end violin)

Anyhow... I still have the curiosity about why these two companies find it necessary to put compensated saddles on all their ukes!

I'll certainly look into the reversible saddles from Mike Chock.

Thanks for taking the time to post and share the links.

{PS... I wish I could figure out a way to do a search that was comprehensive enough to have give me the Underground link that you provided....that's the arguments that I really wanted to address }

Changing a Compensated Bridge...

WebParrot (s2)

Wisconsin, U.S.A.

Doug W

Well-known member

WebParrot (s2)

Wisconsin, U.S.A.

bazuku

Well-known member

Rakelele

Well-known member

WebParrot (s2)

Wisconsin, U.S.A.

WebParrot (s2)

Wisconsin, U.S.A.

Johnny GDS

Well-known member

WebParrot (s2)

Wisconsin, U.S.A.

Kekani

Well-known member

WebParrot (s2)

Wisconsin, U.S.A.

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