Luthier or skilled hobbiest or... what?

As far as I know, there is no official licensing organization that tests and certifies the skill levels of those who profess to be luthiers. Is there any such organization?

One reason I ask the preceding question is that, a year or so ago, each of the 12 student's in my granddaughter's Hi School woodworking class built a tenor ukulele from scratch, using tools & equipment at the school's workshop, & following patterns supplied by the teacher. The one she made plays pretty doggone good. I wouldn't pay more than $200 for it but it plays pretty good.

It seems that, as the ukulele market grows & grows, there are more & more self-proclaimed ukulele craftsmen appearing on the scene, and their "USA-built" instruments are priced minimum $500 & up. A few months ago I bought an all-solid-wood tenor, with a Hawaiian-sounding "K" logo, from a California-based builder, who advertises on Ebay, for several hundred dollars. It's pretty to look at, has decent intonation, but sorely lacks volume and sustain. One of the other people in our uke club bought a tenor from the same outfit & had similar results to mine. The ukes are pretty & usable, but not really worth what we paid for them.

When I read Pepe Romero Jr.'s background I see that he apprenticed to several master luthiers and trained for several years before going out on his own as a professional luthier. So I wonder -- if I see a uke advertised on Ebay as professionally built in the USA, how do I know if the uke was made by a real luthier who "paid his dues" (as did Pepe Romero, Jr.) or who is, instead, a woodworker or cabinet maker or hobbiest who saw a hot ukulele market & decided to make instruments that are "okay instruments" BUT are probably over-hyped & over-priced?

Surely professionally built in the USA implies it was built by someone who is selling the products they make?

As to "training under luthiers", it depends on who the luthiers are. Lots of guitar luthiers couldn't build a ukulele well. They are very different products. And if there was some sort of certification, who takes responsibility for providing the training? What if a certified luthier starts producing rubbish?

I hope the status quo remains. Some of the best instruments I've ever played were built by amateurs.

Like everything else, I try to buy exclusively from known sellers. A beautiful uke can be just that - beautiful. I want beautiful looks and sound. Putting a high price on an unknown uke can make it seem like a quality product.

I'm not a luthier or a skilled hobbiest, but I like making ukuleles.

I have a local luthier who has built guitars and mandolins for a living since the 70s and who also built some ukes recently. I would not consider amateurs or part - timers as luthiers. If they were in my circle of friends and acquaintances I might buy just to support them as I can afford that. If you are looking for a serious luthier built uke then make sure you pick someone who has made a living off his or her craft for many years.

You have asked a mouthful. This thread could probably go on for days with the production vs custom vs luthier vs hobbyist.

Your first observation is about a California based "K" ukulele company. The only one I know is Kala, although there may be another. The only professional built in the USA Kalas that I am aware of are their Elite models. I believe everything else is imported. There is surprisingly little out there on Kala Elite ukuleles. I think they are viewed positively, but I always felt that the entire Elite project was doomed from the start. It is so tough to spend a $1000 and have a ukulele that looks the same, especially the headstock, as one that cost a couple hundred. But you are also talking about a production ukulele. They are made by employees of Kala. Not necessarily a bad thing as there are some really sought after older Martins that were made by factory workers.

The other piece is the luthier vs hobbyist; maybe it should be by trade or not. My first tenor was made by Keith Ogata. Not a luthier by trade, he built them because he had a passion for it. I have 2 of his ukuleles and I treasure them. But ukuleles from 15 years ago and ukuleles today are worlds apart in features and appearance. Making a living as a luthier, being the primary source of income, has to be one of the toughest occupations, as it is for most artisans.

I remember when Mya-Moe was the hot ticket. They had this semi-custom formula that tracked the customer's actual ukulele being made. But it is not enough to make a great sounding and playing ukulele these days, it has to be a show piece. Something that can be pulled out of a case and dazzle. A by trade luthier has to support his/her family, pay the mortgage, buy health insurance, contribute to a 401, etc.; all from the profits what he can make selling what is basically a luxury item. This is the advantage that a not-by-trade luthier has. All of the above is being taken care of by his/her day job. But a not-by-trade luthier/hobbyist is a real hit or miss. I have seen and have great examples and I have seen, and don't have, really poor examples. Definitely a try before you buy.

You don't need certifications to be able to make an instrument. The best companies hire workers and move them through the ranks so the finished product will be a quality made instrument; within reason. A by-trade luthier has to make a superior instrument that he personally makes and garners a demand, or he becomes a not-by-trade luthier; or a Joe Souza. I find that the not-by-trade/hobbyist luthiers to be the most interesting. When you stumble on someone who has passion and skill, it is perhaps the best source for a quality instrument.

John

'Professional' only means you make part of your living from it, not how good you are. How good you are, is not always guaranteed by your formal education or apprenticeships. There are some luthier degrees, but I'm not sure how accredited they actually are.

And then there's the story of the Selmer guitars. You probably know the iconic gipsy jazz guitars that were never designed for gipsy jazz: big bouts, odd shaped soundholes, perpendicular cutaways. They were built in a factory and by men (very few women) that had absolutely no experience in making stringed instruments, that basically specialised in saxophones - which is much more a metal workshop - in rather limited numbers of a few hunderd, not enough to build up experience. Now, look at how coveted they are - it's not just a matter of prices, but more of actual players seeking these instruments.

Interesting question. A fellow I met builds guitars and has built a few ukuleles. He likes building them and one can only build so many for themselves and their grand kids before they start to pile up. So he keeps building them and selling them. They are a bit expensive for what they are in my opinion, I mean, they are not magically better than a production instrument no matter how much love he puts into building them. But he spends a lot of money on materials and tools and he would like to recoup some of his money. And some people will pay for that personal connection to the builder. I've actually thought about it.

70sSanO said:

Your first observation is about a California based "K" ukulele company. The only one I know is Kala, although there may be another.

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I think I might know who he's talking about, and I'm almost positive it's not Kala.

snowdenn said:

I think I might know who he's talking about, and I'm almost positive it's not Kala.

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My first thought was Kamoa, but they are not based in California. I can’t think of another “K” brand.

John

snowdenn said:

I think I might know who he's talking about, and I'm almost positive it's not Kala.

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I can only think of one other but they are not in the "several hundred" range and has been getting very good marks lately, so I'm sure I don't know.

There really is no way to know other than reviews and maybe playing samples, though that can be quite iffy.

The "not worth what we paid" is always tricky. Fact is that the quality of many factory-built ukes, even those in the "several hundred" category is darn good these days. The cost to build a one off instrument, even for a hobbyist or semi-pro builder may not get you much further up the "diminishing returns" graph, if that makes sense.

70sSanO said:

My first thought was Kamoa, but they are not based in California. I can’t think of another “K” brand.

John

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If it's who I'm thinking, they're very small and barely even a brand. I've heard some positives about them, but I think they're unknown enough that the most helpful thing for someone who came across their ukes would probably be to see reviews in the review section.

I've come across small builders who seemed interesting, but I just didn't know enough about their products. I like the idea of supporting these small, local builders, and of finding some unique and special. I think that's what happened with Liam Kirby, Ken Timms, Kevin Mulcock, etc., through Barry Maz's site. I'd love to see something like that for North American builders.

We saw it a little with Bonanza ukes. But it feels like most of the smaller builders I can think of in the States are either highly sought after (with the price and wait to match) or unknown and unproven.

I don't know if there are certain qualifications to be a luthier, but I don't think I've asked myself if the builders of my instruments were luthiers before buying them.

snowdenn said:

I think I might know who he's talking about, and I'm almost positive it's not Kala.

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You are correct! It's not Kala. It's a 1-man shop. As time goes on, I'm sure the individual will get better at his craft (& already has, perhaps).

bellgamin said:

As far as I know, there is no official licensing organization that tests and certifies the skill levels of those who profess to be luthiers. Is there any such organization?

One reason I ask the preceding question is that, a year or so ago, each of the 12 student's in my granddaughter's Hi School woodworking class built a tenor ukulele from scratch, using tools & equipment at the school's workshop, & following patterns supplied by the teacher. The one she made plays pretty doggone good. I wouldn't pay more than $200 for it but it plays pretty good.

It seems that, as the ukulele market grows & grows, there are more & more self-proclaimed ukulele craftsmen appearing on the scene, and their "USA-built" instruments are priced minimum $500 & up. A few months ago I bought an all-solid-wood tenor, with a Hawaiian-sounding "K" logo, from a California-based builder, who advertises on Ebay, for several hundred dollars. It's pretty to look at, has decent intonation, but sorely lacks volume and sustain. One of the other people in our uke club bought a tenor from the same outfit & had similar results to mine. The ukes are pretty & usable, but not really worth what we paid for them.

When I read Pepe Romero Jr.'s background I see that he apprenticed to several master luthiers and trained for several years before going out on his own as a professional luthier. So I wonder -- if I see a uke advertised on Ebay as professionally built in the USA, how do I know if the uke was made by a real luthier who "paid his dues" (as did Pepe Romero, Jr.) or who is, instead, a woodworker or cabinet maker or hobbiest who saw a hot ukulele market & decided to make instruments that are "okay instruments" BUT are probably over-hyped & over-priced?

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There are luthier organizations in the USA, but nothing like the European model of Master/Apprentice condition. This was once brought up to some the USA Luthiers in the past, but was dismissed as most folks didn't want anyone with that kind of control looking over their bench while they worked, or telling them how good or bad that work was. Luthiers in the USA are very independent. I agree with this attitude, if your work is good, you will fair OK, if you can come up with all that is involved with starting and running a business.

Many luthiers do not build instruments at all, but are repair people. Many specialize in one instrument or another. To make a good or excellent uke or whatever, you simply need to know the woods to use, how to make the wood work for you, and put things together that meets the need. This usually takes time, but sometimes a person who puts together a kit or builds from scratch has a very successful instrument the first time out. To make that same instrument 200 or more times in a row and market them, takes skill and knowledge. Making one uke can be fun, making 200 or more can be hard. Good luck to all those who try to making a living at this and succeed.

bellgamin said:

You are correct! It's not Kala. It's a 1-man shop. As time goes on, I'm sure the individual will get better at his craft (& already has, perhaps).

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Now I think I might know who you are talking about. I didn’t recall eBay sales, but might have missed them. If it is who you are talking about, the price was more, but I actually tried a few a couple of years ago at a shop in San Diego. I do agree with you on the projection.

Regardless, one hobbyist told me how many hours it took for a basic no frills ukulele. I “think” he said it was around 8 hours. But like others, I guess, he would carve a bunch of necks, and have a half dozen in work at any one time. It wasn’t necessarily building one from start to finish.

But with inlays, binding, bevels, purfling, etc., those hours have to go up. Therein lies the question, how much is a true craftsman’s time worth? Based on the skill set, it should be a lot more than the guy snaking out your drain.

John

"One hobbyist told me how many hours it took for a basic no frills ukulele. I think he said it was around 8 hours"

I am (or perhaps I should say, was) a hobby ukulele builder. I can't begin to imagine how one would make a ukulele in as little as eight hours. I know it doesn't mean producing a finished instrument after an eight hour working day. I'm thinking of eight hours spread over several days - or even, weeks. No way could I do that. I once totted up the time spent to produce a no-frills soprano. Starting with wood that had already been thicknessed (I use only hand tools) it took at least fifty (50) hours.

I must be doing it wrong!

John Colter.

ukantor said:

I must be doing it wrong!

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I've played some of your ukes.

You are definitely not doing it wrong.

ukantor said:

"One hobbyist told me how many hours it took for a basic no frills ukulele. I think he said it was around 8 hours"
John Colter.

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Start to finish for me could be eight weeks. I work on it now and then, and I do a lot of thinking in between building sessions. I ordered an old tennis racket at the end of April, and I'm still working on it.

"One hobbyist told me how many hours it took for a basic no frills ukulele. I think he said it was around 8 hours"

Jerryc41, you make it look as though I said that. Just for clarity, I didn't - I quoted it from a previous post by 70sSanO.

John Colter

ukantor said:

"One hobbyist told me how many hours it took for a basic no frills ukulele. I think he said it was around 8 hours"

Jerryc41, you make it look as though I said that. Just for clarity, I didn't - I quoted it from a previous post by 70sSanO.

John Colter

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Yes, I realized that too late.

No worries, Mate!

John C