Using PayPal

Jerryc41 · Jun 12, 2020

I've been using PayPal for decades, but I just ran into a glitch. I ordered a bike from a Chinese company with an office in Florida. A few days later, I got an email with a UPS tracking number. The number indicated that it was delivered and signed for the day before.

Upon looking into this further, a package was delivered from Amazon, but it was addressed to a different person on a different street. It had nothing to do with the bicycle order.

I filed a complain with PP, but I knew what they would say: "Claim Denied." I read on the PayPal forum that if a company provides delivery confirmation, PP accepts it. It doesn't matter what was in the package, where it came from, or where it went. A package was delivered, and that satisfies PayPal. This is standard operating procedure for PayPal, and it's also standard for Coverou, the Chinese company. I'm sure that other companies do the same thing. When word spreads that PP will accept any delivery notice to get them off the hook, I think this practice will become more common.

I am going to avoid PP as much as I can, and I'll use other services instead. If I could have ordered this bike from Amazon or another reputable supplier, I would have, but I didn't have that choice.

Stagehand · Jun 12, 2020

The same just happened to me on Ebay.
This is a new scam.
I filed a claim with PP and they denied it. I appealed and they found in my favor.
Ask UPS to send you an email stating the tracking number and delivery address did not match your address and submit it with your appeal.
Good luck...Sean

ripock · Jun 12, 2020

Did you not receive your bike? That would be the only thing I cared about. I have never in my life looked at a tracking number; I am more of a "it comes when it comes" kind of person.

UkerDanno · Jun 12, 2020

Call their customer service number, that gets a better response...

Rllink · Jun 12, 2020

Jerryc41 said:
I've been using PayPal for decades, but I just ran into a glitch. I ordered a bike from a Chinese company with an office in Florida. A few days later, I got an email with a UPS tracking number. The number indicated that it was delivered and signed for the day before.

Upon looking into this further, a package was delivered from Amazon, but it was addressed to a different person on a different street. It had nothing to do with the bicycle order.

I don't get it Jerry. A package of what was delivered to someone else? Did someone else get your bike, or did you get someone else's tracking number? I mean, maybe your bike is still on the way. Sometimes things get mixed up.

AQUATOPAZ · Jun 12, 2020

CALL Paypal. They are quite helpful when you speak to a person. Also, they probably gave you a tracking number with a wrong digit. Verify the tracking number from the vendor.

Jerryc41 · Jun 12, 2020

Stagehand said:
The same just happened to me on Ebay.
This is a new scam.
I filed a claim with PP and they denied it. I appealed and they found in my favor.
Ask UPS to send you an email stating the tracking number and delivery address did not match your address and submit it with your appeal.
Good luck...Sean

I found no way tp appeal. I have to use a transaction #, and when I try the same one, they say that has been denied.

Jerryc41 · Jun 12, 2020

Rllink said:
I don't get it Jerry. A package of what was delivered to someone else? Did someone else get your bike, or did you get someone else's tracking number? I mean, maybe your bike is still on the way. Sometimes things get mixed up.

It wasn't even from the company. They somehow got hold of a UPS tracking number for an Amazon package, and that is what they sent. It was an Amazon order of who-knows-what that went to someone else. So, the company was able to show UPS that the package was delivered.

Jerryc41 · Jun 12, 2020

AQUATOPAZ said:
CALL Paypal. They are quite helpful when you speak to a person. Also, they probably gave you a tracking number with a wrong digit. Verify the tracking number from the vendor.

The vendor doesn't communicate, but he has done the exact same thing with other customers.

Joyful Uke · Jun 12, 2020

Did you pay by credit card? If so, contact your credit card company and dispute the charge.

This does sound like a scam, doesn't it?

Sallybee · Jun 12, 2020

Something similar happened to us with PayPal. We STILL months later have received nothing and PayPal is STILL awaiting the company’s response so agreed. I won’t be using it much anymore.

clear · Jun 13, 2020

So did it ever resolve for you?

It could also just be an honest error on the seller's part where the package was addressed wrong. Of course, in today's Internet, scam is always a possibility.

If you used a credit card with paypal, you can dispute the charge with you credit card company. That's another recourse.

Stagehand · Jun 13, 2020

PayPal was not answering their phones at that time due to the pandemic. I don't know if they are now.

Stagehand · Jun 13, 2020

Jerryc41 said:
I found no way tp appeal. I have to use a transaction #, and when I try the same one, they say that has been denied.

I contacted them thru the chat function.

bunnyf · Jun 13, 2020

I have heard quite a bit about this very same scam recently. Apparently fake companies take a paypal payment as you said, never send out any product, give a tracking # from some other order to some other person and Paypal accepts this as delivered. You have to only use a very well known reliable vendor or “fulfilled by amazon”. I prefer to use a credit card which I have more control over disputed transactions.

bellgamin · Jun 13, 2020

The only reason PayPal even exists is to protect buyers from exactly this kind of scam. For this reason, I always buy online via PayPal whenever that option is offered.

When I make an online order, the purchase agreement always requires me to provide a "deliver to" name & address. Thus, the seller's legal obligation is that, in order to comply with the terms of the purchase agreement, seller MUST deliver the purchased item to the name & address exactly as specified in the purchase agreement. Delivery to ANY other name &/or address will NOT fulfill the seller's end of the purchase agreement.

Thus, because the seller did not legally fulfill the purchase agreement, PayPal is legally bound to refund the buyer & it is PayPal (not the buyer) who has the money and legal clout to pursue an actionable claim against the seller. In other words, PayPal is functioning like an escrow.

In point of fact, the seller is defrauding PayPal, because it was PayPal who paid for the item. In fact, PayPal stands between seller and buyer for the very purpose of ensuring that buyers are not defrauded by sellers. Thus, if any fraud transpires, PayPal has interposed itself into the transaction for the very purpose that PayPal will ALWAYS be the defrauded party -- NOT the buyer. It is for this reason, & this reason ONLY, that PayPal earns its fees.

snowdenn · Jun 13, 2020

It's funny, I always feel more comfortable with PayPal as a buyer than as a seller. I feel like they tend to be more supportive of buyers. I've actually purchased or not purchased from sites I'm on the fence about because they do or don't have PayPal.

If this fake tracking number scam is catching on, I'd bet PayPal is already worried about it, because they seem to work harder to keep buyers happier than they do with sellers. I've actually heard of the opposite scam, where a buyer has kept the merchandise and returned something worthless like rocks to satisfy the tracking number requirements.

I wish there was a better way to vet buyers and sellers online. Maybe some sort of feedback system combined with a credit score or something.

bellgamin · Jun 13, 2020

snowdenn said:
... ...I wish there was a better way to vet buyers and sellers online. ... ...

For what it's worth, on eBay buyers rate sellers and sellers rate buyers. I 99.999% will buy only from sellers with 99.6% approval & at least 300 buyer ratings.

When looking at a seller's approval ratings on eBay, be aware that an approval rating is sometimes a composite of the individual's approval ratings BOTH as a buyer & seller. I almost bought from a guy with a great approval rating but, when I looked at the details, most of the ratings were of that individual as a buyer, not a seller. His seller ratings were still few in number. I didn't buy from him for that reason.

I also scan through the reviews of eBay sellers when I'm buying anything costing more than a few dollars. In one case, I almost bought a uke from a seller with a 99.7% approval and over 1,000 reviews. However, when I checked the reviews, all but 2 of them were for commodities other than ukes or guitars. The guy was probably a pawn shop operator. I passed.

Reverb also has buyer reviews of sellers.

Kenn2018 · Jun 13, 2020

bellgamin said:
For what it's worth, on eBay buyers rate sellers and sellers rate buyers. I 99.999% will buy only from sellers with 99.6% approval & at least 300 buyer ratings.

When looking at a seller's approval ratings on eBay, be aware that an approval rating is sometimes a composite of the individual's approval ratings BOTH as a buyer & seller. I almost bought from a guy with a great approval rating but, when I looked at the details, most of the ratings were of that individual as a buyer, not a seller. His seller ratings were still few in number. I didn't buy from him for that reason.

I also scan through the reviews of eBay sellers when I'm buying anything costing more than a few dollars. In one case, I almost bought a uke from a seller with a 99.7% approval and over 1,000 reviews. However, when I checked the reviews, all but 2 of them were for commodities other than ukes or guitars. The guy was probably a pawn shop operator. I passed.

Reverb also has buyer reviews of sellers.

I use PayPal because I don't like to give my credit card number to unknown sellers or companies.

As far as reviews are concerned. Some sellers have discovered that they can game the system by posting bogus reviews for their own products. They are sometimes easy to spot and other times not. Amazon started adding "verified buyer" on some reviews meaning they verified that the person bought the product on Amazon.

snowdenn · Jun 13, 2020

bellgamin said:
For what it's worth, on eBay buyers rate sellers and sellers rate buyers. I 99.999% will buy only from sellers with 99.6% approval & at least 300 buyer ratings.

When looking at a seller's approval ratings on eBay, be aware that an approval rating is sometimes a composite of the individual's approval ratings BOTH as a buyer & seller. I almost bought from a guy with a great approval rating but, when I looked at the details, most of the ratings were of that individual as a buyer, not a seller. His seller ratings were still few in number. I didn't buy from him for that reason.

I also scan through the reviews of eBay sellers when I'm buying anything costing more than a few dollars. In one case, I almost bought a uke from a seller with a 99.7% approval and over 1,000 reviews. However, when I checked the reviews, all but 2 of them were for commodities other than ukes or guitars. The guy was probably a pawn shop operator. I passed.

Reverb also has buyer reviews of sellers.

Huh. I'm a little less cautious, I just try to aim for around 99% and above, though I dislike buying from someone with less than 100 ratings.

If my guess in the other thread about your eBay "K" brand was correct, they have way less than your usual 300 rating threshold. But then, if they'd made and sold 100s of instruments, you probably would've gotten a better product.

But yeah, eBay was what I was thinking of when I said wanted a feedback system. It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing.

It's better than Reverb's, I think. Everything I've bought on Reverb has been from 100% four star sellers with at least dozens of ratings. But in several cases, I've been disappointed with the condition of the instruments. Not in terms of damage or wear, I just mean dirtiness.

This has been a new pet peeve of mine: when sellers ship dirty instruments. Man, clean up your stuff. At least just wipe it down. Yuck. All right, I'm getting a bit off track.

Kenn2018 said:
I use PayPal because I don't like to give my credit card number to unknown sellers or companies.

Yep, this is another reason I use PayPal.

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