Rllink
Well-known member
I want to like HPL, but it always spells Formica counter tops to me. I'm looking at an HPL instrument that I want and I need to get past that.
Surprised by Laminate
- Thread starter VegasGeorge
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I want to like HPL, but it always spells Formica counter tops to me. I'm looking at an HPL instrument that I want and I need to get past that.
"to me, HPL is HPL and laminate is wood plywood...albeit sometimes very good plywood"
That's the problem, right there. The "L" in HPL stands for "laminate", so manufacturers don't make a distinction - they should. Both HPL and plywood ukes can be very good, but I do like to know what I'm buying.
John Colter
That's the problem, right there. The "L" in HPL stands for "laminate", so manufacturers don't make a distinction - they should. Both HPL and plywood ukes can be very good, but I do like to know what I'm buying.
John Colter
merlin666
Well-known member
Yes I understand that "laminate" usually means generic plywood with a veneer of pretty wood. I think that HPL is usually laminated from sheets of paper with a pretty print on the surface but can also be a more rigid type of particle board.
You may be confident that if you buy a ukulele described as "laminate" you will be getting laminated wood. I am not.
John Colter
John Colter
From what I understand, there are no standards for the term "laminate." It can cover simple plywood to layered tone woods and everything in between.
HPLs (High Pressure Laminates) do have ISO standards.
ISO Online browsing platform: available at https://www.iso.org/obp
From their site:
high-pressure decorative laminate
HPL
HPDL
sheet consisting of layers of cellulosic fibrous material (normally paper) impregnated with thermosetting resins and bonded together by the high-pressure process (3.2)
Note 1 to entry: This is a general definition of high-pressure decorative laminate(s). More specific product definitions can be found in ISO 4586-3 to ISO 4586-8.
3.2
high-pressure process
simultaneous application of heat (temperature ≥ 120 °C) and high specific pressure (≥ 5 MPa), to provide flowing and subsequent curing of the thermosetting resins to obtain a homogeneous non-porous material with increased density (≥ 1,35 g/cm3), and with the required surface finish
3.3
surface layer
upper decorative layer consisting in one or more sheets of fibrous material (usually paper) impregnated with aminoplastic thermosetting resins (usually melamine based resins) or other curable resins or other decorative design surfaces such as metal foils, wood-veneers, and textiles, etc. which are not necessarily treated with thermosetting resin
3.4
core layer
fibrous material (usually paper) impregnated with thermosetting resins (usually phenolic based resins) or other curable resins, possibly reinforced by metal layer(s) or metal mesh(es) and others which are not necessarily treated with thermosetting resin
The only entry for "laminate" was for building construction. And "laminate wood for instruments" yielded nothing.
HPLs (High Pressure Laminates) do have ISO standards.
ISO Online browsing platform: available at https://www.iso.org/obp
From their site:
high-pressure decorative laminate
HPL
HPDL
sheet consisting of layers of cellulosic fibrous material (normally paper) impregnated with thermosetting resins and bonded together by the high-pressure process (3.2)
Note 1 to entry: This is a general definition of high-pressure decorative laminate(s). More specific product definitions can be found in ISO 4586-3 to ISO 4586-8.
3.2
high-pressure process
simultaneous application of heat (temperature ≥ 120 °C) and high specific pressure (≥ 5 MPa), to provide flowing and subsequent curing of the thermosetting resins to obtain a homogeneous non-porous material with increased density (≥ 1,35 g/cm3), and with the required surface finish
3.3
surface layer
upper decorative layer consisting in one or more sheets of fibrous material (usually paper) impregnated with aminoplastic thermosetting resins (usually melamine based resins) or other curable resins or other decorative design surfaces such as metal foils, wood-veneers, and textiles, etc. which are not necessarily treated with thermosetting resin
3.4
core layer
fibrous material (usually paper) impregnated with thermosetting resins (usually phenolic based resins) or other curable resins, possibly reinforced by metal layer(s) or metal mesh(es) and others which are not necessarily treated with thermosetting resin
The only entry for "laminate" was for building construction. And "laminate wood for instruments" yielded nothing.
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A while back I tried to learn something about HPLs figuring that perhaps one could determine something about the sound from different HPLs, but I quickly gave up. It seams almost any HPL can be created.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puviIAaM7xc is Wilsonart's 10 minute tour of how it's made.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puviIAaM7xc is a shorter 2 1/2 minute video from Pfleiderer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puviIAaM7xc is Wilsonart's 10 minute tour of how it's made.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puviIAaM7xc is a shorter 2 1/2 minute video from Pfleiderer
Thanks for such a thorough and thoughtful reply! My overwhelming conclusions based on the rest of the thread so far is that distinguishing between something like "plywood" and HPL is worthwhile (plus the Farralon Ekoa of laminated LINEN), but more broadly, that there are a LOT of ukuleles that sound great that aren't solid wood!
And maybe I'm not entirely insane to find so many of them so pleasing!
Thanks, I do know gotaukulele! I started on the YT channel, then set up a home away from home at the website.
When I say that I kept being drawn to the sound of laminates I'd heard online, this is mostly what I meant. I know that there's not a 1:1 correspondence to how things sound on the internet and in person, but @BazMaz is so consistent in his approach that I feel confident that the comparisons between models at least within his Extended Cinematic Universe are going to make for a good starting point.I'm glad to hear your report on Enya. I realllllly love their sound. That was one of the two brands I'd settled on based on a long time listening first to Baz, then to other folks I found.
The other brand I'd been circling around was Snail, another Chinese brand that leans to plywood. On the half-dozen reviews of various models, a theme emerged, that these sound a lot better than you'd think based on cost ($100-200 US for most of the ones Baz covered.) I'd saved a couple of quotes to my notes. These are all Baz talking:
• Snail as a brand have done it again. This is a terrific ukulele that easily gives Kala and Ohana a very hard run for their money on equivalent ukuleles. But as I say above, I think this is up there as a value alternative to a Pono.
• it's the character of the tone that shines for me
From the next concert model up:
• Every model I have reviewed sits firmly in the 'great score' section of this site. I think this one is a terrific alternative to some of the exotic wood laminate ukes from brands like Kala for example, and I think the price is actually a bit better too. Certainly a recommendation from me.
From his review of their entry-level tenor:
• I'd take this one over a host of solid wood ukuleles that are marketed at the same sort of price. In fact I'd take this over a host of solid wood ukes marketed at quite a bit more than this.
• It's an attactive, well made, punchy, light instrument and deserves your attention. This one really pleased me and I'd buy one!
From his Snail tenor review just a couple of weeks ago:
• As I've mentioned above the build and finishing here are exemplary. I really can't find any major issues with it anywhere and the gloss is an absolute mirror. It's also really light to hold and perfectly balanced. Another reason when I first unboxed it that I thought it was much more expensive than it is.
They're pretty much all a 9/10 in his book. There was still something about the Enyas catching my ear, and I was just about to pull the trigger when Snail had a pandemic special price for the first uke that Baz had mentioned, dropping the price briefly from $99 to $32! They didn't include a tuner at that price, and it's a downgraded bag, but for $32, I had plenty left over to spring for a tuner. I'm also still living the lockdown life, so an unpadded gig bag is fine.
I'm also happy to affirm Baz's assessment. This little Snail (a concert) punches WAY above its weight. It feels and plays like a real musical instrument, I wouldn't change a thing about the action (in reviewing one of the Snail tenors, Baz mentioned that if anything, it was a little lower than he'd have set it!), and it has a lovely voice. It has also held tune freakishly well. I've been really flabbergasted by that. I'm a uke beginner, but I've been around music for a long time, managing a concert hall for a few years in the Boston area. I'm comfortable saying exactly what Baz did, that this $100 Snail is completely legit, not only for its price, but even compared with solid wood ukes at higher prices.
My extremely happy experience with a plywood uke has made me realize that hey, maybe I'm on the right path here after all. There's good and bad stuff at every price range, and automatically assuming that all wood is the only way to fly doesn't seem entirely warranted, at least for me.
I'm glad that you mentioned Flight, too, Jer, because I'm currently thinking that my second purchase will be a Flight Soprano. I also love how this little fella looks! If it's even close to this nice, it'll feel like a good buy at $170-ish.
I feel guilty about this, though. I live in Kaneohe, a short bicycle ride from the Kanilea shop. I'd always assumed that I'd be working my way up to solid koa Kanilea tenor, with KoAloha in the mix for a soprano, because solid koa is definitely the "best", right? And indeed, while he may since have changed his mind, I discovered later in my research that Baz had mentioned that his go-to ukes at the time he'd written about them were a Kanilea tenor and KoAloha soprano, both all koa, both just over $1000 US. It felt good to have some affirmation about that initial inclination, but I'm just not feeling as strongly about that as my personal pinnacle anymore.
There's a whole 'nother part of my journey where I assumed that I'd also end up playing mostly tenors with low g because of the richness, but I find that I'm less and less interested in even having one in the collection. Maybe someday -- why rule out anything, right? LOL -- but for now, I'm mostly being drawn to small and bright. And every bit as much as the size, it's the chime-y-ness of these laminates that's really making me happy.
btw, it happens that there's another active thread coming at this from another direction, $160 Kala beating up on the $470 Pono? In this case, the OP had been excited to step up to an all-mahogany Pono after playing a laminate body/wooden top Kala, and was surprised to find that he preferred the sound of the cheaper laminate.
There's more to the story than that, but I guess that's the point with this whole conversation about laminates and woods. There's more to the story!
Thanks again, Jer, and everyone else adding such insightful perspectives on all this!
Don't feel guilty at all! There is no one "best" uke, nor is there one "best" sound. The best ukulele is the one you play. If you like the sound, that is what matters. If you want to play it, that is what matters.
Though I do admit I am jealous of you being so close to such great builders...
Happy strumming!
Hey Tim. I haven't tried a Snail yet, but that sounds like a great deal for sure. I'm glad you're enjoying it!
I agree with the post from Cluze just above this one.
MIM is now a Flight dealer and has mentioned she'll be adding a lot of them onto her site soon. I've only played the TUS35 I mentioned, but some of those others have caught my eyes too. I really like a lot of their designs.
I agree with the post from Cluze just above this one.
MIM is now a Flight dealer and has mentioned she'll be adding a lot of them onto her site soon. I've only played the TUS35 I mentioned, but some of those others have caught my eyes too. I really like a lot of their designs.
Don't feel guilty at all! ....
Though I do admit I am jealous of you being so close to such great builders...
First, thanks for helping me feel less guilty. LOL The funny thing is that I'd always had picking up the ukulele on my "someday" list, and the day arrived during the pandemic. Because of the timing, none of the shops are open at all, and don't have any tours scheduled for the foreseeable future, so I haven't actually visited anyone yet!!!
I want to do Kanilea for sure, my home town peeps, but I'm interested in taking a look at KoAloha's shop, too. There are also a BUNCH of retailers that all have dozens or scores of instruments in stock, ranging from touristy novelty stuff (says the guy with the uke I bought for $32 - no disrespect intended) up to many high-end models from the local K builders and others. They all have daily play alongs, and a bunch of other experiences that I'm up for....
...maybe in 2022. LOL It's going to be a long time before I trust crowds, especially crowds mostly composed of people from plague-ier states than Hawaii. Not meaning to get political, but our whole household is immune-compromised, which is why we moved to Hawaii, so I'm just not in a hurry.
I really enjoy what Mim is up to (here, Instagram, her site, etc), so I'm very glad to hear it! And that Flight that I posted earlier is one of the ones that they actually build in Honolulu. I'm definitely keeping my eyes on this as a potentially rewarding next set of steps.
Thanks again to you both!
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PTOEguy
Well-known member
The few times I've run across Leolani's I've thought they sounded awfully good for what they were.
Also, I'm going to put in a plug for sometimes you just need a cheap and cheesy sounding uke. I downgraded my banjo uke experience from a very nice Deering to the Gold Tone Little Gem because I like the sound on the cheaper instrument. The Deering was refined and a great sound, but for my music, the less defined more jangly sound of the Gold Tone was perfect.
Often laminates have a "boxy" sound. Some people don't like this because it's different than the sound of solid wood. But it sounds as if you like it and are drawn to it. I have given away two inexpensive Kmise sopranos that have that boxy sound and I liked it on them as well. It's OK to like it. Before you quit you will probably like the sound of a variety of ukes, enjoy the journey.
Jannik Lindquist
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I was trapped in the "it must be solid" way of thinking for a long time and bought several Kala and Flight solid wood ukes. Then I bought the Flight Victoria for my daughter (solid spruce top with laminate acacia side and back) and was floored by how good it is. That made me rethink my attitude toward laminate ukuleles and I now also have the Flight Diana, the Flight WUS-3 all laminate mahogany soprano and the Kala spruce/mahogany long neck soprano (ka-sslng) - and I am deeply impressed by the quality of all those instruments.
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I'm in the same boat. I had an all laminate koa Kiwaya KS-5 which sounded fantastic and was eclipsed only by my KTS-7. I sold it only because it didn't get enough play time but the sound and playability was excellent. Recently I got a Flight Sophia with a solid spruce top and laminate walnut back and sides. It's not as if I was against laminate instruments but I was massively impressed by the sound. Aside from the small finishing flaws, that thing punches way above its price. Both of these instruments have shown me that laminate wood isn't necessarily a hindrance.
Oooh, I envy you picking up the Flight WUS-3! I had seen @BazMaz's review of the WUS-4 at gotaukulele
, which had got me pointed at Flight in general in the first place. Now that I have looked, I think that all 50 WUS-3 and 10 WUS-4 ukes are sold.
Noting that the reason for the scarcity is the pandemic (the Japanese luthiers working in Hawaii for Flight have wisely returned home for the foreseeable future, putting an end to that project), I'm wondering how a LOT of things are going to shake out in the next couple of years. Both for availability of finished instruments, and priorities for the kinds of materials that are used. I'm enjoying seeing how creative these designers are trying to be, and how focused on outcomes that produce "real" instruments, really stretching to see how many ways there are to accomplish that.
I believe all WUS-4 ukes are sold but WUS-3 are still available at a few shops:
https://gute-ukulele.de/collections/ukulelen-1/products/flight-wus-3-sopran
https://ukesupply.de/products/flight-mahagoni-sopran-wus-3
Both are German shops. I don't know about Uke Supply but Gute Ukulele delivers world wide if you're interested in ordering.
Thanks so much!!! It was easier for me to reconcile myself to, "Well, maybe they'll be back someday" than "Okay, spend the money fast or miss your chance". LOL At least now I know!
Jannik Lindquist
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Two months ago I was still a happy tenor-player. Then I went to Berlin on vacation and dropped by Gute Ukulele to try the Flight WUS-3 laminate mahogany soprano. I was floored by its sound - and despite having sworn that I wouldn't buy anything when I went to visit the shop I took one with me home
I have been playing my WUS-3 ever since and, realizing that I was sold on sopranos for good, I ordered a Kiwaya KTS-4 last week - an instrument which Alex from Southern Ukulele Store has featured as one the ten best sopranos in the world. Today it arrived and after a few hours of playing, I have to say that I honestly think that the sound of the WUS-3 is much better. Which is a bit of a shock to me. The WUS-3 has Flight's own fluorocarbon strings on and the KTS-4 has the Fremont Blackline which it came with - but even so it's obvious to me that they don't just sound different. To my ears, the WUS-3 is louder and has much more character.
I have been playing my WUS-3 ever since and, realizing that I was sold on sopranos for good, I ordered a Kiwaya KTS-4 last week - an instrument which Alex from Southern Ukulele Store has featured as one the ten best sopranos in the world. Today it arrived and after a few hours of playing, I have to say that I honestly think that the sound of the WUS-3 is much better. Which is a bit of a shock to me. The WUS-3 has Flight's own fluorocarbon strings on and the KTS-4 has the Fremont Blackline which it came with - but even so it's obvious to me that they don't just sound different. To my ears, the WUS-3 is louder and has much more character.
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