Joes Romanillos and mojo

Anyone who is anyone in the stringed instrument building world knows who Irvin Somoygi is. But do you know who Jose Romanillos is and can you believe, shock horror, that this giant declared 'nobody knows' when it comes to the sound department of building ?

After watching this video, if you could just chose one, whose floor would you be prepared to sweep?

Pete Howlett said:

Anyone who is anyone in the stringed instrument building world knows who Irvin Somoygi is. But do you know who Jose Romanillos is and can you believe, shock horror, that this giant declared 'nobody knows' when it comes to the sound department of building ?

After watching this video, if you could just chose one, whose floor would you be prepared to sweep?

Click to expand...

I would like to think that anybody who builds classical guitars knows who he is. His book 'making a Spanish guitar' is excellent. Not a big fan of Western Red Cedar.

I agree. I spend some time at classical guitar delcamp and more there would know him then Irvin.

A couple things:
Classical guitars are a waste of wood. (Obviously a personal opinion, but one I've always felt so strongly that it is not up for discussion.)

If you've never had an instrument fail you are clearly not on the hunt for the best sound they can make.

The best sounding instrument will distort somewhat in ways that musicians will seldom tolerate. This tells me that, despite what they claim, musicians want a pretty instrument that sounds pretty good and that they are not really interested in the ultimate tone. Jay Litke is just the most recent luthier I've heard talk about this.

jcalkin - isn't there an element of subjectivity to all of this anyways? I mean, your "pretty good" sounding guitar might be my "ultimate best" and your "ultimate" might not be interesting to me at all. I guess I just don't understand how you can confidently claim to predict what other people like, more accurately than they themselves can?

dwizum said:

jcalkin - isn't there an element of subjectivity to all of this anyways? I mean, your "pretty good" sounding guitar might be my "ultimate best" and your "ultimate" might not be interesting to me at all. I guess I just don't understand how you can confidently claim to predict what other people like, more accurately than they themselves can?

Click to expand...

I can't predict what other people will enjoy about anything. I've met blues freaks who love the crappy old guitars from the 1920s and '30s because they sound like the vintage recordings, but mostly what they are attracted to is the sound of the inferior recording equipment of the time It's a nostalgia thing, not a lutherie thing. Human subjectivity is a pain in the ass in any discussion about sensory judgment. An appreciation for tone quality can be acquired by experience, especially if you work in a music store. I learned that out of ten Martin guitars one would clearly sound the best, one would be a dog, and the other eight would be pretty good guitars. But Martin's standards were so high that all ten were better than some other maker's best. If you came to that shop on a quiet day, and if your ears had reached a certain level, I could prove it to you. It would not be subjective. And as much as I wanted to be a Guild fan, I had to admit that they generally couldn't stand up next to a Martin.

Individual guitar makers with experience use Martin quality as a starting point in their own work. Musicians who can't afford the high-end market learn to appreciate what they can afford. If everyone could afford a handmade guitar the low-end market would disappear. BUT---there are musicians who only want to have fun and who thumb their noses at this entire discussion. Witness the explosion in the number of cigar box guitar makers and players. They don't care about tonal quality very much, they care about joy. I admire them a lot, but that's not the kind of lutherie I have chosen to pursue.

jcalkin said:

A couple things:
Classical guitars are a waste of wood. (Obviously a personal opinion, but one I've always felt so strongly that it is not up for discussion.)

If you've never had an instrument fail you are clearly not on the hunt for the best sound they can make.

The best sounding instrument will distort somewhat in ways that musicians will seldom tolerate. This tells me that, despite what they claim, musicians want a pretty instrument that sounds pretty good and that they are not really interested in the ultimate tone. Jay Litke is just the most recent luthier I've heard talk about this.

Click to expand...

Obviously can't play the classical very well then...

I take your point about being close to failure to get the best sound, which is always more relevant with guitars due to the higher string tension. But there has to be a balance with longevity. Very few people can afford to spend

Red Cliff said:

Obviously can't play the classical very well then...

I take your point about being close to failure to get the best sound, which is always more relevant with guitars due to the higher string tension. But there has to be a balance with longevity. Very few people can afford to spend

Click to expand...

I don't play classical guitar at all. They don't make a noise I want to hear. I listened to my last nylon-string guitar music well before CDs were invented. Life is too short to try and appreciate everything. There is no room to breathe in the classical guitar world, either. The rules of construction are way too confining.

Musicians should say, "I want all the tone I can afford," not "Tone means everything to me." I never hear them make the distinction, though.

Classicals a Waste?

jcalkin said:

A couple things:
Classical guitars are a waste of wood. (Obviously a personal opinion, but one I've always felt so strongly that it is not up for discussion.)

If you've never had an instrument fail you are clearly not on the hunt for the best sound they can make.

The best sounding instrument will distort somewhat in ways that musicians will seldom tolerate. This tells me that, despite what they claim, musicians want a pretty instrument that sounds pretty good and that they are not really interested in the ultimate tone. Jay Litke is just the most recent luthier I've heard talk about this.

Click to expand...

Just curious if you also consider classical guitar music to be a waste? Lots of spectacular musicians in that genre and their associated builders of classical guitars certainly are not to be discounted. i have only built a few (7) classicals in my time, but I did have the honor of spending a month at a workshop presented by Jose Romanillos in Spain in 2002, and returned for another visit a few years later. He has an intense, fearless relationship with the building materials he uses, glue, wood, aethetics, joinery, everything. His focus on the intricacies of the building process continue to influence everything I build to this day.The classical world is just a lot different than the acoustic guitar world. Flamenco guitars, in particular, are expected to have a short life. and I believe the great classical players understand and accept the consequences of pushing materials to their limits. An instrument built pushing the limits of the performance of it's materials allows the best musicians to take the guitar to the highest level of musical performance.--Bob

jcalkin said:

A couple things:
Classical guitars are a waste of wood. (Obviously a personal opinion, but one I've always felt so strongly that it is not up for discussion.)

Click to expand...

Lol hilarious

Erhum Mr Calkin.... did you wake up to find you were a troll? I thought I was the one who poked the bear here.

Bob is right and I believe Jose has a point when he talks about building to the 'edge'. Remember what you said about my instruments when you first saw them Bob? "I wonder how long these will last?" From day 1 I have built 'on the edge' and there have been casualties, most of them ending up as patients in your hospital but most survivors (and I get to see them regularly now) are still holding up.

This game has no real rules. The following video proves it.

jcalkin said:

Musicians should say, "I want all the tone I can afford," not "Tone means everything to me." I never hear them make the distinction, though.

Click to expand...

Musicians who can't afford the high-end market learn to appreciate what they can afford.

Click to expand...

I feel like you're just continuing to make a lot of assumptions. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're writing. I get your point about the differences between the ten martins and that makes sense, but I really don't understand how you're equating price and tone (in other words, I don't think they're always correlated) and I still don't think you should be dismissing subjectivity so completely.

If I line up all of my musician friends, blindfold them, and give them ten different guitars from different makers - then have them pick out the one that they think sounds the best - I doubt they'd agree! And I doubt there'd be a direct and consistent correlation between cost and "favorite" tone. And ultimately I think that's okay.

Pegasus Guitars said:

Just curious if you also consider classical guitar music to be a waste? Lots of spectacular musicians in that genre and their associated builders of classical guitars certainly are not to be discounted. i have only built a few (7) classicals in my time, but I did have the honor of spending a month at a workshop presented by Jose Romanillos in Spain in 2002, and returned for another visit a few years later. He has an intense, fearless relationship with the building materials he uses, glue, wood, aethetics, joinery, everything. His focus on the intricacies of the building process continue to influence everything I build to this day.The classical world is just a lot different than the acoustic guitar world. Flamenco guitars, in particular, are expected to have a short life. and I believe the great classical players understand and accept the consequences of pushing materials to their limits. An instrument built pushing the limits of the performance of it's materials allows the best musicians to take the guitar to the highest level of musical performance.--Bob

Click to expand...

I understand all this very well, Bob. I enjoy making bold statements, but I mean no disrespect for/to classical musicians or instrument makers. I wish them all prosperity and happiness. I had a decent collection of classical and flamenco guitar records but the listening experience didn't take. Since I had no friends who enjoyed the music I discarded them. I will never make a classical guitar, just as I will never make a carved-top instrument. That leaves me with a large variety of instruments to build, study, and learn to play. It was a very easy decision to make and I don't expect anyone else to agree, or care if they don't.

dwizum said:

I feel like you're just continuing to make a lot of assumptions. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're writing. I get your point about the differences between the ten martins and that makes sense, but I really don't understand how you're equating price and tone (in other words, I don't think they're always correlated) and I still don't think you should be dismissing subjectivity so completely.

If I line up all of my musician friends, blindfold them, and give them ten different guitars from different makers - then have them pick out the one that they think sounds the best - I doubt they'd agree! And I doubt there'd be a direct and consistent correlation between cost and "favorite" tone. And ultimately I think that's okay.

Click to expand...

You are definitely misinterpreting what I wrote. I doubt if your friends have developed enough finesse in their hearing to pick the best out of ten similar guitars, and I'd be surprised if any of them were capable of pulling out the best tone any of the instruments can produce.. It takes a lot of careful listening and access to a huge number of instruments to form such sensitivity. I certainly don't have ears like that. The judges at the bigtime violin making contests would laugh at the suggestion that anyone off the street could replace them. They may quibble about certain tonal variables, but ultimately they have to agree that one violin is, indeed, the best. I have been to listening sessions where one guitar took everyone's breath away and shut down the show---it was that good. If they get enough exposure, the best builders rise to the top of the heap and can charge the most for their instruments, so in that sense, the best tone costs the most. The largest percentage of us peons dwell pleasantly in the land of subjectivity because we don't have access to the best of anything or the ability to use it to its best advantage. To think otherwise is being naive.

There is a poem that starts: A wise old owl sat on a post (or fence). The premise behind it is that 'the longer you live and more experience you have, the less you know'. Now if you want a real belly laugh go to any PRS video where Reid is bragging about the tonal quality of his(as a result of these videos) soon to be seized Brazilian rosewood guitar necks! He taps them, yep you read right and talks about what an amazing tap-tone they have. Honestly folks, complete garbage but rarely challenged as a theory and gobbled up by his fans.

A true Artisan in my view is like Jose Romanillos - humble enough to say, I don't know and an honest maker will defer, as Les Stansell points out, to the player to bring out the best in any instrument.

Chase after the ultimate, if you will - it's your time, effort and money - but there is such a thing as good enough. The rest is up to the player.

How good is good enough? Ca c'est la question.

John Colter

I built an all walnut body steel string. The notes just jumped off the soundboard. In half a year it was unplayable the bridge rotated so much and then began to peal off (soundboard around 0.070-0.075". I straightened the top and extended the bridge plate a little. Strung it up and the magic is gone. It just sounds ok. While I would like to build Instruments that sound a head above the rest my other goal is to build them that they last. I also plan to build ordinary instruments for people that appreciate the guitar but can not afford a hand built instrument. I guess I am different, not wanting to build the best guitars to be able to charge the most. Basically I want to build to learn the craft and get my instruments in the hands of people that will appreciate them, rich or poor. (I am retired, I can afford to)

I never thought much about acoustic guitars before building them, even less so for nylon stringed ones. I do not care for classical music played on guitar. But I have heard some of the top classical guitars (abet only online) and I can hear some of their potential. I stumbled across some good recordings of nylon string guitars that makes me wish I had the skill these people have.



I built a nylons string crossover for myself as an experiment, not bad for a first crack but I want to build a few more yet. They are a different beast as compared to steal strings. The same idea of building them light enough that they sound exceptional goes the same as SS's. They paint with a different brush than SS's. I have met a few people that are interested in having one as they already have their SS spectrum covered. They like the sound of nylon guitars also, a different flavor. Hope I don't waste the wood on making a few.

Pete Howlett said:

Erhum Mr Calkin.... did you wake up to find you were a troll? I thought I was the one who poked the bear here.

Bob is right and I believe Jose has a point when he talks about building to the 'edge'. Remember what you said about my instruments when you first saw them Bob? "I wonder how long these will last?" From day 1 I have built 'on the edge' and there have been casualties, most of them ending up as patients in your hospital but most survivors (and I get to see them regularly now) are still holding up.

This game has no real rules. The following video proves it.

Click to expand...

Hi Pete, watched the vid and from the first not struck the second one did it for me. I went back and listened to the first afterward and noted the differences, it sounded sweet but the second has just a smig more, presence?

ukantor said:

Chase after the ultimate, if you will - it's your time, effort and money - but there is such a thing as good enough. The rest is up to the player.

How good is good enough? Ca c'est la question.

John Colter

Click to expand...

That is exactly my point! I hope my instruments keep improving, but I have no interest in winning contests or testing the market for the highest price I can achieve. Good enough is good enough for my own uses. I don't even own one of my own guitars or ukes because if I don't sell them I can't afford to make more. I had an exquisite Steve Kinnaird guitar that I never played because I didn't want to hurt it. I still have a Huss&Dalton that I never play for the same reason. It is for sale since there is no point in owning things that don't get used. Instruments that are set up correctly and that make a pleasant noise are all I require.

But I think it's important to recognize that there is a tonal pinnacle that the most qualified people can identify and that such instruments don't come cheap. That doesn't mean that there aren't jewels in the affordable ranks. I think my own instruments fit that category.

One does have to pick the right tool for the job. I have a couple of Maton guitars (Australian) and my wife has a cheap Brazillian Digiorgio classical. The tonal differences lend themselves to the different regional genres, with the Matons being Western in sound while the Latin feel of the Digiorgio is undeniable. I suppose it is also actual way street, with the instruments influencing the sound and style of the playing.

At the risk of digging a hole for myself, you need the right tool for the job.