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Thread: Radiused backs and strength

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Wales, UK
    Posts
    5,374

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    Warnign:

    I am expressing 'my views' not 'the view'. I've done this before and upset people who post here. I am not saying you are wrong, though I strongly challenge your views. This is called 'debate' and at the end of it we should still remain friends. If you don't like your views being challenged then don't read this response to what I think are great ideas; not just the ones I hold.

    Guitars again.... show me a uke which is damped that has a live back and sides that is 'better' than one that is not. I just don't hold with the argument - it's not compelling enough and there is not enough empirical evidence for UKULELE to prove it. Citing the extensive research and contradictory evience in the classical guitar world (note, none in the steel string) and the woeful lack of consistent scientific and controlled experiment papers on it, this debate becomes a 'he said/she said' argument of no merit.

    I began my building career in academia an have done some research - my dissertation was on the history of the classical guitar. I interviewed makers who built differently and drew my own conclusions. When I began my full time career as a ukulele maker I followed tradition. Today I have thrown all fo that away to experiment and test tropes - which is what these arguments are. If you are going to make a statement about something then, in my view, it is only real if you have evidence to back it up. I gave the evidence... where is yours?

    In this world of making where opinion is misrepresented as fact it is easy, without any qualifying experience to state that x is better than y when you haven't defined what 'better' is. "Better' in this context would more accurately be defied as "The sound I like." For the record, I have no documented papers on the subject. I make my living from doing not thinking about doing. So here is my 'evidence' of a recent , non regulated or documented experiment:

    I have just altered the bracing on my concert design and hope that the second instrument I have built with this bracing (the first was an assisted student build made in tandem with her but not yet finished) will be as 'good' as the first. I'll know and report in follow up here, later in the week. What I do know is:
    !: My 'new' bracing is only new to me - I know others have done it. I research and try other's ideas out that make sense to me and have rarely been wrong in my considerations when facd with the resulting piece built.
    2: I am 'tying' my front braces into the lower block and top front bar - something your 'are not supposed to do' according to those who have views on the subject. This little nugget I gleaned from a flamenco guitar maker....
    3: I've increased from former designs the thickness of the backs including the braces that hold the 12' radius - something I have not yet changed but may do in the future if I ever build another concert.
    4: I've 'floated' the front rather than 'stressed' it onto the rims - again from my flamenco guitar maker friend. New departure for m.
    5: I don't know if thsee two instruments sound 'better' than the 971 I have previously built, What I do know is I have never hear a louder concert from my bench that has retained it's sweetness like this one that my student and I finished an set up yesterday:. This is my 'evidence' for what it is worth.



    Final plea. Could those who build provide sound samples please. Build documentation is great but rarely do we get a demo....

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Cumbria, NW England
    Posts
    589

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    Hi Pete. I'm always interested to hear what others are trying when it comes to bracing. However, I don't understand what you mean by 'floated' as oppose to 'stressed' when talking about the top in point 4. Please could you explain what you mean.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Trois-rivieres,Quebec
    Posts
    41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Howlett View Post
    Warnign:

    2: I am 'tying' my front braces into the lower block and top front bar - something your 'are not supposed to do' according to those who have views on the subject. This little nugget I gleaned from a flamenco guitar maker....

    4: I've 'floated' the front rather than 'stressed' it onto the rims - again from my flamenco guitar maker friend. New departure for m.
    Same thing here, I cannot visualize these 2 points as they seems to go in opposite directions. Can you elaborate please.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Sheffield, England
    Posts
    131

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Howlett View Post
    Warnign:

    I am expressing 'my views' not 'the view'. I've done this before and upset people who post here. I am not saying you are wrong, though I strongly challenge your views. This is called 'debate' and at the end of it we should still remain friends. If you don't like your views being challenged then don't read this response to what I think are great ideas; not just the ones I hold.

    Guitars again.... show me a uke which is damped that has a live back and sides that is 'better' than one that is not. I just don't hold with the argument - it's not compelling enough and there is not enough empirical evidence for UKULELE to prove it. Citing the extensive research and contradictory evience in the classical guitar world (note, none in the steel string) and the woeful lack of consistent scientific and controlled experiment papers on it, this debate becomes a 'he said/she said' argument of no merit.

    I began my building career in academia an have done some research - my dissertation was on the history of the classical guitar. I interviewed makers who built differently and drew my own conclusions. When I began my full time career as a ukulele maker I followed tradition. Today I have thrown all fo that away to experiment and test tropes - which is what these arguments are. If you are going to make a statement about something then, in my view, it is only real if you have evidence to back it up. I gave the evidence... where is yours?

    In this world of making where opinion is misrepresented as fact it is easy, without any qualifying experience to state that x is better than y when you haven't defined what 'better' is. "Better' in this context would more accurately be defied as "The sound I like." For the record, I have no documented papers on the subject. I make my living from doing not thinking about doing. So here is my 'evidence' of a recent , non regulated or documented experiment:

    I have just altered the bracing on my concert design and hope that the second instrument I have built with this bracing (the first was an assisted student build made in tandem with her but not yet finished) will be as 'good' as the first. I'll know and report in follow up here, later in the week. What I do know is:
    !: My 'new' bracing is only new to me - I know others have done it. I research and try other's ideas out that make sense to me and have rarely been wrong in my considerations when facd with the resulting piece built.
    2: I am 'tying' my front braces into the lower block and top front bar - something your 'are not supposed to do' according to those who have views on the subject. This little nugget I gleaned from a flamenco guitar maker....
    3: I've increased from former designs the thickness of the backs including the braces that hold the 12' radius - something I have not yet changed but may do in the future if I ever build another concert.
    4: I've 'floated' the front rather than 'stressed' it onto the rims - again from my flamenco guitar maker friend. New departure for m.
    5: I don't know if thsee two instruments sound 'better' than the 971 I have previously built, What I do know is I have never hear a louder concert from my bench that has retained it's sweetness like this one that my student and I finished an set up yesterday:. This is my 'evidence' for what it is worth.



    Final plea. Could those who build provide sound samples please. Build documentation is great but rarely do we get a demo....
    Pete, I don't need any evidence, it's a discussion forum. But if we are going there, you haven't given any evidence, you have given your opinion. That may well be an opinion based on a lot of experience, but it is still just an opinion, not a fact.

    You can't complain people haven't supplied empirical evidence when you haven't either. Finding a single event (one company) that agrees with your hypothesis is not evidence, it is selection bias. Telling us what you do or have done and that it works is not evidence - I could just as well do the same.

    I thought the idea of a discussion forum is to have a discussion. You have a view, I have a different one, and that is fine. If it works for you then great. But there are other ways.

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