I'm curious about how a concert body responds to a lower tuning, preferrably re-entrant. Has anyone got positive experiences with a lower tuning? I know some people do the low G with concerts too. I'm quite happy with the concert strings tension. Would tenor strings do the trick, or even thicker ones?
Tuning down a (re-entrant) concert (with tenor strings?)
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actadh
Well-known member
For what it is worth, I had an old article pop up in my news feed about Ukulelezaza. I tuned down my long neck soprano Shima to F Bb D G as he suggested doing for concert ukuleles. The uke really resonates now. Might be something to try.
https://www.ukulelemag.com/stories/...flashy-strums-and-why-nothing-beats-a-soprano
https://www.ukulelemag.com/stories/...flashy-strums-and-why-nothing-beats-a-soprano
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I would just try it with the strings you have on now and see if they feel too low tension for you. You might be surprised..maybe not. You can at least get a feel for what it'd be like, although it wouldn't be exact.. If you decide to stick with it and want more tension then yeah higher tension/thicker strings may be in order. Just pay attention to what you're getting. Example: D'addario fluorocarbon strings are all the same gauges in all packs even though they are labelled for various uke sizes. I think that is true for some others.
Lastly, it depends on your uke and your ears. Some ukes would work better than others for this.
Lastly, it depends on your uke and your ears. Some ukes would work better than others for this.
Yeah, for sure it depends on the uke and the ears and even playing style. I just realized that I haven't tuned my uke in any different way save once when I played The Thrill Is Gone by Manitoba Hal. He has his 4th string tuned down 10 half steps, to A3. My high G string sounded crap but was just recognizeable and playable.
The other day I watched this Ten Thumbs Productions video suggesting to tune a concert one half step down:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmdStpEjbVM
His advice is mainly because of allegedly easier chord shapes for popular pop-songs (keys E and B) and also because blues etc bends will be easier and have a bit more range (a step and a half). I might even go resonance-first and figure out my chord shapes later
. I wouldn' also mind a couple of lower notes for singing and chord melodies.
I do have a (solid body) tenor too, but I'm still looking for the "optimal" tuning for each.
As to the Ukulelezaza's interview, it probably makes a lot of sense. The tuning things (also tuning the tenor down to A) and also the fact that if you are a vintage music guy, then yes, you'll probably rather be playing vintage instruments and the epoque soprano.
The other day I watched this Ten Thumbs Productions video suggesting to tune a concert one half step down:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmdStpEjbVM
His advice is mainly because of allegedly easier chord shapes for popular pop-songs (keys E and B) and also because blues etc bends will be easier and have a bit more range (a step and a half). I might even go resonance-first and figure out my chord shapes later
. I wouldn' also mind a couple of lower notes for singing and chord melodies.I do have a (solid body) tenor too, but I'm still looking for the "optimal" tuning for each.
As to the Ukulelezaza's interview, it probably makes a lot of sense. The tuning things (also tuning the tenor down to A) and also the fact that if you are a vintage music guy, then yes, you'll probably rather be playing vintage instruments and the epoque soprano
.
I have a mahogany Kiwaya concert which I tuned to Bb when I changed the original strings. It now has a set of Living Water fluorocarbon concert strings and sounds absolutely beautiful in Bb. The richness of tone is a delight.
I'm happy for your upgrade! Which were the original strings?
CPG
Well-known member
I recently messed with tuning down sopranos with mixed results. One thing you can try if you are having trouble getting enough string tension is to get a low g string and put it in the 3rd slot, than move each of your other string up a spot (pitch wise). So put your c-string in the 2nd slot, your e-string in the 4th slot, your g string in the 1st slot, and set aside your a-string. I've also messed with just using tenor strings which can help if your not tuning down too far. Result will ultimatly depend on the uke, the strings, and your subjective experience.
Here is link to my experiments with a soprano using a Fremont Soloist low g as the 3rd string and than shifting every other strings "up"
https://forum.ukuleleunderground.co...tuning-soprano-to-fBbDG-eAC-F-dGBE&highlight=. Though I think a flourcarbon low g string would have worked better.
And here is me testing out my new soprano tuned to Bb6 with set of Martin M620s (flourocarbon tenor strings): https://photos.app.goo.gl/zbunvGgYBrXtGc8GA
The concert might not sound great all the way down to G6 (then again it might), but I bet A6 and certainly Bb6 would sound good. You'll just have to try it and see.
Here is link to my experiments with a soprano using a Fremont Soloist low g as the 3rd string and than shifting every other strings "up"
https://forum.ukuleleunderground.co...tuning-soprano-to-fBbDG-eAC-F-dGBE&highlight=. Though I think a flourcarbon low g string would have worked better.
And here is me testing out my new soprano tuned to Bb6 with set of Martin M620s (flourocarbon tenor strings): https://photos.app.goo.gl/zbunvGgYBrXtGc8GA
The concert might not sound great all the way down to G6 (then again it might), but I bet A6 and certainly Bb6 would sound good. You'll just have to try it and see.
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ripock
Well-known member
Here's what I do. I always down tune. I do it because I prefer low-tension strings for my music. I typically use concert strings on a tenor uke because of the lessened tension. When putting on strings, my modus operandi is to tighten the A string 'til I get a tension that I like (that allows me to perform bends and glissandi), then I match the other strings to the A string. In the past I have down tuned as low as CFAD. Right now I am using EAC#F#. The only liability that I can perceive is the fact that I cannot get that twangy, plucky, shrill ukulele sound that is so very traditional...and that is more than okay with me.
Wow, that must be some low tension! Each to their own; I'm happy you've found yours.
My tenor is the Clearwater steel string solid body, and I messed around with what I guess are the original strings (the thinnest being a 9, I reckon). I ended up liking the original tuning best what it comes to feel and sound. Looking forward to changing to a thinner set to use gCEA with a lower tension or a thicker one to tune lower and possibly more optimal sound.
Not entirely certain, but I've read that Kiwaya fit Fremont strings. I like to stay with the factory strings for a good while (unless I really don't get along with them!) and kept those on for most of the year. Sounded pretty good, but I felt that they might be too slack if tuned down.
Bill Sheehan
Well-known member
I had a tenor-scale Fluke some years ago, and I kept it tuned down to "f Bb D G". Really sounded sweet and mellow in that tuning! Eventually, however, I surrendered to the longing for the soprano size, tuned upward to "a D F# B", and that's where I'll stay... at least this week...
As an update to my explorations: I tuned down my quite worn fluorocarbon soprano/concert strings half step at a time. Down until aBbDG it was fine, but around A# or A it started to sound off-balance and too loose. At A or G# or G or around there I felt a resonance like never before, and boy it was off balance and boomy ! Had it not been reentrant, it would probably have just boomed all over the place. I then changed to Aguila Red Concert set and started tuning from G and I'm working my way up. I'm now at A, and the most aggressive resonance is behind me already. I will tune incrementally up to C and figure out, whether I like a lower tuning more. The difference in tension is quite small, but the Bb sounded quite good with the fluorocarbons. After that, I 'm gonna change to a Red tenor set, so I can have a fair comparison. I will probably start a bit lower than G, but I have high expectations about the lower, boomy resonance, with strings that are properly tensioned. Unfortunately I'm not familiar with the Reds yet, but it was the only (interesting) concert-tenor combo I could get my hands on just now. Stay tuned [pun intended]!
! Had it not been reentrant, it would probably have just boomed all over the place. I then changed to Aguila Red Concert set and started tuning from G and I'm working my way up. I'm now at A, and the most aggressive resonance is behind me already. I will tune incrementally up to C and figure out, whether I like a lower tuning more. The difference in tension is quite small, but the Bb sounded quite good with the fluorocarbons. After that, I 'm gonna change to a Red tenor set, so I can have a fair comparison. I will probably start a bit lower than G, but I have high expectations about the lower, boomy resonance, with strings that are properly tensioned. Unfortunately I'm not familiar with the Reds yet, but it was the only (interesting) concert-tenor combo I could get my hands on just now. Stay tuned [pun intended]!Actually, having checked the string gauge pdf on the forum, the (unwound) low-G strings for concerts are clearly thinner than the C-strings of a tenor set. Which leads me to believe that even the tenor sets' optimal tuning is somewhere in between G and C on a concert - higher than I thought.
I wonder how high one dares tune the tenor strings on a concert...
I wonder how high one dares tune the tenor strings on a concert...
merlin666
Well-known member
I have a luthier built concert that I had set up in fifths for CDGA tuning. I don't like it all with two wound strings being too floppy and poor sound. Going down half step in re-entrant may not be bad though particularly with a larger body concert.
Is that C4 or C3? C3 might be too low and the rest of the C4 set's strings being too high..? I could imagine a tuning like G3 (=low G) - D4 - A4 - E5 might work. The low G seems to work on at least some concerts, and probably the E6+a couple of steps it extends to, might not be too high, if it's well made...
I mean that it shouldn't be impossible at all to have four strings tuned in fifths to work on an instrument, because there's so many of them built throughout history. It's probably just a question of finding the best tuning, since there's much less wiggle room than with the uke tuning, especially reentrant one.
My little "tuning exploration", if nothing else, seems to teach me that there probably are several (reentrant) tunings that a uke can handle ok, even if some work better than others (to one's preference). That much should be true anyway, considering violins, mandolins and other instruments in fifths tuning. Unless ukes are made so cheap that they disregard the range outside the gCEA that 99% use anyway...
I dunno how a concert body's volume (and if there's other things to consider) compares to a violin, but it is tuned in the G3-D4-A4-E5 I mentioned.
I also dunno if I'm pushing the boundaries of purposeful naming, but it could be considered as a "soprano" violin, as opposed to alto, which is tuned a fifth below, to C3-G3-D4-A4. Which would lead to believe that the concert, aka alto ukulele, could start at C3 (the A4, as we know, should work), although I don't know if a viola's body is closer to a tenor uke body? Anyway, the cello might be better dubbed as a baritone violin, leaving the family without a tenor, so there's some discrepancy...
One could also compare mandolins and some cavaquinhos etc.
I also dunno if I'm pushing the boundaries of purposeful naming, but it could be considered as a "soprano" violin, as opposed to alto, which is tuned a fifth below, to C3-G3-D4-A4. Which would lead to believe that the concert, aka alto ukulele, could start at C3 (the A4, as we know, should work), although I don't know if a viola's body is closer to a tenor uke body? Anyway, the cello might be better dubbed as a baritone violin, leaving the family without a tenor, so there's some discrepancy...
One could also compare mandolins and some cavaquinhos etc.
merlin666
Well-known member
Keep in mind that "concert" refers primarily to scale length but the attached body can vary substantially in shape and volume. For example my luthier built concert is designed like a vintage Martin and has a more elongated and smaller body than my KoAloha concert.
Well, true. But isn't it usually specified if the body differs from "the norm"? So that your concert might be marketed as a super soprano? Or a "soprano body with concert scale".
But admittedly there probably is more variability than, say, with violins, where it is specified in fractions, if it's not a "whole" violin. And guitars have some standards too, I think.
Having checked the sheet a _third_ time, I noticed that even the 3rd strings of _baritone_ sets are as thick or even a bit thinner than the same brand's low G strings for concert.
Wanna tune your concert to dGBE? Try baritone strings (reentrant "high D set" or replace the 4th string with a 1st string)!
Taking the fifths tuning ponderings a bit further, the 4 free strings of an instrument tuned in fifths span across 21 half-steps. Reentrant ukulele strings span 9 half-steps, so tuning them an octave up and then adding the difference to the 1st string, would add up to 12+9=21 half steps, which is exactly the same span. That would mean, assuming that the fretboards (and usable notes) of an uke and a fifths-tuned instrument are of approximately equal length, one single ukulele should handle tunings with two sets of free strings spanning an octave apart!
I don't know where the usual wiggle rooms for a "standard" sized concert body would lie, but the third strings would most likely span across G3 and C4 - and then some. That is, somewhere in between C3-C4 and G3-G4. Possibly somewhere in between, and possibly containing some sweet spots.
Probably it doesn't apply to cheaper ukuleles that only take the standard tuning (and, perhaps, even the first five frets' notes or so) into account in their design, but any of the least bit ambitious designs should, one would think? I mean, there are loads of cheap mandolins, for example - do they all sound crap from, say, 7th fret and beyond?
I don't know where the usual wiggle rooms for a "standard" sized concert body would lie, but the third strings would most likely span across G3 and C4 - and then some. That is, somewhere in between C3-C4 and G3-G4. Possibly somewhere in between, and possibly containing some sweet spots.
Probably it doesn't apply to cheaper ukuleles that only take the standard tuning (and, perhaps, even the first five frets' notes or so) into account in their design, but any of the least bit ambitious designs should, one would think? I mean, there are loads of cheap mandolins, for example - do they all sound crap from, say, 7th fret and beyond?
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