Why friction tuners?

fretie

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Specifically, why does Koaloha still use friction tuners on their concert ukes? I have a nice mango tenor Koaloha with geared tuners so, when eyeing up the possibility of adding a concert Koaloha to the herd, was surprised to see the friction tuners on that model.
 
My understanding is a combination of looks (rear-facing, specifically), weight, and cost. I recall an interview with one of the KoAloha folks sometime last year (or 2019? I have lost track of time...) where they were asked about this. They said that they have not yet found an alternative that was cost effective (or some phrase like that) but that they are working on it. I think it was an episode of the Ukulele Site's YouTube "podcast", but I don't recall which one.
 
My understanding is a combination of looks (rear-facing, specifically), weight, and cost. I recall an interview with one of the KoAloha folks sometime last year (or 2019? I have lost track of time...) where they were asked about this. They said that they have not yet found an alternative that was cost effective (or some phrase like that) but that they are working on it. I think it was an episode of the Ukulele Site's YouTube "podcast", but I don't recall which one.

How "cost effective" does it have to be for the prices that Koaloha charges? Don't Kamaka and Kanilea use planetary or geared tuners on all their ukuleles these days?
 
How "cost effective" does it have to be for the prices that Koaloha charges? Don't Kamaka and Kanilea use planetary or geared tuners on all their ukuleles these days?

That is a question that I am afraid *I* can't answer.

I get where they are coming from, as far as the cost argument goes. There is a substantial difference in cost between friction tuners (even really good ones) and, say, Gotoh planetary tuners. At the same time, for a premium instrument, with a premium price, that cost difference for the tuners just doesn't seem nearly as important.
 
How "cost effective" does it have to be for the prices that Koaloha charges? Don't Kamaka and Kanilea use planetary or geared tuners on all their ukuleles these days?

I always wondered why car manufacturers went cheap on a part that cost less than a dollar more. I was told that you multiply it times millions of vehicles and it starts to add up... never quite bought into the argument.

KoAloha uses the frictions on their sopranos and concerts. And they are some of the best friction tuners out there. They likely started with them 25 years ago and had few issues. Many do not like geared tuners sticking out on these sizes and the balance is changed. The Gotoh planetary tuners have become popular the past few years. But adding what might be another $50 - 100, supply issues, and redesign considerations is something I am sure they have considered. Their Silver Anny sops and concerts have black geared tuners to match the headstocks and the Red Label Silvers have Gotohs.

They have limited production and sell them all. That may enter into this discussion as well. Or maybe they still have a stock of thousands they have to use up.
 
How "cost effective" does it have to be for the prices that Koaloha charges? Don't Kamaka and Kanilea use planetary or geared tuners on all their ukuleles these days?

Let's see, I guess Kanile'a and Kamaka are the main competition.
Let's also assume that using Gotoh UPTs add $100 cost to the KoAlohas to allow them to keep their gross margin the same.

Currently, Kamaka HF-1 is $1000, Kanile'a K-1S is $900, and KoAloha KSM-00 is $825.

Kamaka HF-1 comes with a hard case, assuming it is worth $75 (because it is a very nice case and you'll want a nice case to go with your nice uke), that brings the Kamaka price to $925.

Kanile'a K-1S comes with a soft case, assuming it is worth $35 (because it looks just like the $35 soft cases I see on Amazon), that brings the Kanile'a price to $865. However, chances are, you want a hard case for it, so truly you have to put in another $50-$100; anyway.

KoAloha KSM-00 becomes $925 with Gotoh UPt tuners. Compare it to Kamaka at $925 and Kanile'a at $865.

I guess the big questions is...
Will you buy the KoAloha at its new price?
 
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BTW, just to comment on the KoAloha's friction tuners. I own a KoAloha KSM-02, their longneck soprano, which has the same scale length as the concert.

I don't find the friction tuners very difficult to use. It took a bit of getting used to, which lasted maybe 2 days. I must admit that I can't as easily adjust them to within +/- 0.5 cent accuracy, but the same could be said of the Gotoh UPTs.

KoAloha's friction tuners aren't bad.
 
For me having friction tuners would be a plus!
 
Good quality friction pegs are light and easy to use. On the few ukuleles I've had with guitar-style tuners I have almost invariably ended up replacing them with friction pegs, out of preference. The only exception has been a Romero Creations XS Soprano, which is enough of an oddball that the decent tuners it has aren't worth the faff of changing.

There are plenty of people who see quality friction pegs as a plus. Kiwaya offer both sorts on some of their lines, the guitar-style versions denoted with a -G I believe.
 
Specifically, why does Koaloha still use friction tuners on their concert ukes? I have a nice mango tenor Koaloha with geared tuners so, when eyeing up the possibility of adding a concert Koaloha to the herd, was surprised to see the friction tuners on that model.

I’ve fancied a Koaloha for a while and am envious of a friend’s concert model. One of the attractions to me, and there are many attractions, is the friction tuners. I’ve used friction tuners in the past and I just love their simple efficiency. OK, they do take a bit more skill to use than geared tuners and you might need a bit of finger strength but nether of those two points is really an obstacle to the happy use of friction tuners - well not after a bit of thought and good technique.

If someone buys a Koaloha and does not like the (very good) friction tuners fitted then they are at liberty to sink some money into the instrument by fitting their preferred tuners. Personally I’d rather have the opportunity of a lower sale price with friction tuners than a higher sale price with something much more fancy.

Edit. Plus one to what Rlink says below.
 
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There is a nobility to playing a ukulele with friction tuners, just like tuning by ear with a tuning fork. It makes people feel closer to the culture. Some manufacturers want to pass that experience to their customers, especially high end traditional manufacturers who build ukuleles for people who are invested in it. I have friction tuners on one of my ukes and the traditional simplicity of them is enjoyable. Nothing wrong with that and no justification needed.
 
There is a nobility to playing a ukulele with friction tuners, just like tuning by ear with a tuning fork. It makes people feel closer to the culture. Some manufacturers want to pass that experience to their customers, especially high end traditional manufacturers who build ukuleles for people who are invested in it. I have friction tuners on one of my ukes and the traditional simplicity of them is enjoyable. Nothing wrong with that and no justification needed.

You're right. I was about to say that friction tuners are all about aesthetics. However there is an appealing ethos to tradition. It is the same reason that I use a straight razor instead of modern shaving tools; I want to live the history of how hirsute men dealt with their matutinal grooming chores. So I totally acknowledge the tradition, but I want to end by saying that for me that is a secondary concern. Maybe I'm superficial but I really focus on the visuals. I think the hidden tuners lends themselves for much sleeker lines. In fact, the last ukulele I buy is going to have friction tuners on a stauffer headstock.
 
I have a KALA Concert (Spalted Mango laminate) that came with Graph-tec (SP?) tuners and I like them a lot. I have no desire to own a uke with friction tuners though admittedly I've no experience with them. I don't mind having the tuner buttons on my other ukes visible from the front, YMMV.

If I want tradition maybe I'll take up the Lute. :p
 
I have been reading complaints about friction tuners since I first inherited a cheap mahalo. With trepidation I change the strings. Since I had no experience with gear tuners it's what I learned on. My next uke was a KoAloha, again friction tuners. I didn't understand what the problem was. Then I got a few with geared tuners. I hated them. They're heavy, they ruined the balance of the instrument and they're ugly. I had a kala soprano travel ukulele. Ridiculous putting gear tuners on them. I had to switch them to friction tuners. So it is a matter of preference. KoAloha being such a master of craft and true to tradition. I wouldn't question. With all of my friction tuners, I rarely have to adjust them, and when I do, it's not a challenge. It's part of the art form of playing music.

What I'm wondering here is how many on this site and garden variety hum and strum ukulele players can even hear when the intonation is off on their instrument? If you didn't have an electronic tuner, would you know within micro measures? I sing a lot. I play my ukulele regularly with many other instruments and sometimes really good musicians. Never has anyone told me that my instrument Was Out Of Tune. I can say unequivocally, I don't have a good ear for those things. I rely on a tuner to tell me if I'm in tune or not. Often when my dog has fleas it sounds good to me. Sometimes I doubt myself and I think it sounds wrong but the electric tuner reassures me that indeed my dog has fleas in all the right places. But I do live in temperate climate and I might feel differently if I had extremes. I have tried planetary gear tuners. They are heavier than friction tuners. I have never pined for them. This is truly a first world issue. If you have the money and you want it you can buy it.
 
What I'm wondering here is how many on this site and garden variety hum and strum ukulele players can even hear when the intonation is off on their instrument? If you didn't have an electronic tuner, would you know within micro measures? I sing a lot. I play my ukulele regularly with many other instruments and sometimes really good musicians. Never has anyone told me that my instrument Was Out Of Tune. I can say unequivocally, I don't have a good ear for those things. I rely on a tuner to tell me if I'm in tune or not. Often when my dog has fleas it sounds good to me. Sometimes I doubt myself and I think it sounds wrong but the electric tuner reassures me that indeed my dog has fleas in all the right places. But I do live in temperate climate and I might feel differently if I had extremes. I have tried planetary gear tuners. They are heavier than friction tuners. I have never pined for them. This is truly a first world issue. If you have the money and you want it you can buy it.

My dog has both sharp fleas and flat fleas and I rarely can tell the difference between them, even when biting me. The flea that matters is my jumping flea.
 
I have a soprano with high quality friction tuners. I detest them. I have 3 ukes with Peghed Planetary tuners. Don't like using them, but put up with them. Love Gotoh UPT tuners.

Don't really have a problem with geared tuner "ears." The aesthetics don't bother me. (Though I do like attractive knobs on them.) The function is far more important to me.

Almost forgot: Mfgs do not pay retail for parts such as tuners. Since they buy in bulk, and high-end instruments are good PR for the parts, they get a very good discounts from the mfg. Or they buy them from a wholesaler that gives them a good price. Just as the stores that carry the parts, sell them with an added markup.
 
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I have a KoAloha and white label 6-string Kamaka with friction tuners. While they are not great they get the job done. The Kamaka ones are slightly corroded as the uke lived on Oahu for decades and when I was at the factory in spring they said that they now sell the planetary tuners that fit their white label models. I am contemplating to get the replacements but I am not in a rush.
 
Another advantage I find with friction tuners is that the 1:1 ratio makes tuning and detuning (on purpose) much, much faster. I now hate to twist and twist and twist geared tuners before I get anywhere near the intended pitch. And for effect, I sometimes detune and retune a single note during melody playing.
 
Another advantage I find with friction tuners is that the 1:1 ratio makes tuning and detuning (on purpose) much, much faster. I now hate to twist and twist and twist geared tuners before I get anywhere near the intended pitch. And for effect, I sometimes detune and retune a single note during melody playing.

This has become the primary reason why I prefer friction and planetary geared tuners, aside from the aesthetics. Tuning is just so easy with them, not so with regular geared tuners. I have zero issues with friction tuners if they're at least decent quality. Although to be honest, there's a much higher chance to come across a poor quality friction tuner than a geared tuner.
 
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