Open strings tuned fine, notes played on frets badly out of tune

Hi everyone!

Bored by lockdown towards the end of last year, I bought myself an Ortega RFU10SE soprano ukulele for my birthday. It's certainly one of the best presents I ever received, and I really like the instrument's tone, but there's a serious problem with its tuning.

I tune the open strings correctly, as verified by the uke's inbuilt tuner and the Cleartune iphone app, but depressed strings are noticeably sharp, and its worst on the 1st, 2nd and 3rd frets: notes played on these frets are furthest away from being in tune. I notice it most on the C string, where the C sharp is around 20% and the D is slightly sharper, even. The A7 and A7sus4 chords (which feature in one version of Neil Young's Harvest Moon I found on YouTube) sound dreadful. But it's the same on the E string, really. Funnily enough, the F on the 5th fret is only around 10% sharp.

I read a thread here where someone suggested placing a matchstick next to the nut, but that didn't seem to help (being a novice, though, I'm not sure if I put the toothpick - didn't have a matchstick - in the right place).

Could my problem simply be that the Ortega RFUSE10 is not a high-quality instrument? It's got a lovely tone, in my opinion, but the tuning problem is absolutely jarring, it's impossible not to notice.

Sorry if this post was too long - no doubt a typical rookie error. I'll be really grateful for any advice/help you can give!

Pete

I'm the guy who made the matchstick recommendation. The issue is called intonation. Yes, Soprano ukuleles have to be made to extraordinary levels of accuracy in order to avoid intonation problems.
Currently I'm using appropriately sized Allen keys instead of matchsticks. I'm not sure that a toothpick would work as whatever you use must be a firm fit under the strings in order to shorten the distance to the nut which is a form of compensation.

The error could be at both ends of the scale and often is.

Are you good at measuring things with a rule?

anthonyg said:

I'm the guy who made the matchstick recommendation. The issue is called intonation. Yes, Soprano ukuleles have to be made to extraordinary levels of accuracy in order to avoid intonation problems.
Currently I'm using appropriately sized Allen keys instead of matchsticks. I'm not sure that a toothpick would work as whatever you use must be a firm fit under the strings in order to shorten the distance to the nut which is a form of compensation.

The error could be at both ends of the scale and often is.

Are you good at measuring things with a rule?

Click to expand...

Hi, anthonyg, and thanks for getting back to me so quickly. I really appreciate it.

I can use a ruler as well as anyone, I would hope (maybe I've misunderstood your meaning?).

The toothpick is a pretty firm fit, and I've just got some interesting results with my new tuner app: when I retune the uke so the open strings are in tune, the first fret of the C string is more out of tune than pre-toothpick, but the 2nd and 3rd frets are slightly less sharp and by the 6th fret the note is almost back in tune again! The same tuning progression occurs to all the strings, with the first fret of the E string over 25% sharp and reverting to nearer the right tuning by the 6th fret. The G and A strings are almost back in tune on the 4th fret.

Does that tell you anything useful?

(Above the 6th fret the tuning seems to jump around, but certainly at this early stage of my playing career I'm not too concerned by the upper frets.)

I was thinking of writing to Ortega to complain - do you think there's any point complaining about a 150 euro ukulele? As I said, I'm completely new to the world of ukuleles, guitars etc., so I don't know what to expect.

Thanks again for your help.

Pete

Pete, the fact that the tuning is worse in the open position and is getting better up the neck definitely points to it being the nut placement that's the problem. Now nut height also could be a contributing factor to consider. Do you have to press down quite hard to fret notes in the open position?

Try moving the toothpick away from the nut, leaving a small gap between it and the nut, which is effectively moving the nut even closer to the frets and see what happens. See how far you need to move it to get good intonation and see if you can get good intonation by just moving the pick around.

anthonyg said:

Pete, the fact that the tuning is worse in the open position and is getting better up the neck definitely points to it being the nut placement that's the problem. Now nut height also could be a contributing factor to consider. Do you have to press down quite hard to fret notes in the open position?

Try moving the toothpick away from the nut, leaving a small gap between it and the nut, which is effectively moving the nut even closer to the frets and see what happens. See how far you need to move it to get good intonation and see if you can get good intonation by just moving the pick around.

Click to expand...

Thanks very much for the advice! I will experiment with various positions and I might try out some alternatives to the toothpick as well.

As for how hard I have to press down: I find that hard to say, because I've never played a ukulele before. Not particularly hard, I'd say, especially after a month or so playing. If there wasn't a pandemic on, I'd go to a shop and test out other models and other ukes of the same model.

I will spend some time experimenting in line with your advice and then post again, I hope in the next couple of days, depending on other commitments.

Pete

I was thinking of writing to Ortega to complain - do you think there's any point complaining about a 150 euro ukulele? As I said, I'm completely new to the world of ukuleles, guitars etc., so I don't know what to expect.

Thanks again for your help.

Pete

Click to expand...

I would say that a 150 euro uke should certainly not have this level of intonation issues.

Harvey

After some more experimentation with the toothpick, I found that the best result is having the toothpick about 6 mm lower than the bottom edge of the nut (i.e. 6 mm to the middle of the toothpick). The C string is still the most troublesome, but those chords, the A7 and A7sus4 are not so jarring. But the toothpick in this position makes the it harder to press down first and second frets.

Leaving a toothpick there is hardly a practical solution, so I'm not sure what to do now. I contacted the shop I bought it from here in Prague. It's a music shop that sells a wide range of instruments, but they specialise in guitars. Someone there told me they could calibrate the ukulele or replace it, but I'm reluctant to part with it, having had it such a short time and really grown to like playing and knowing that I'm by nature a lazy sod who has a tendency to lose my practising discipline.

Do you have any nifty solution that would mean I don't have to post the bloody thing back to the shop? (We're in full lockdown here, so I can't take it to the shop and drop it off.)

Thanks again, anthonyg.

Pete

eclipsme said:

I would say that a 150 euro uke should certainly not have this level of intonation issues.

Harvey

Click to expand...

Oh, okay, thanks for that info.

PeteKreff said:

After some more experimentation with the toothpick, I found that the best result is having the toothpick about 6 mm lower than the bottom edge of the nut (i.e. 6 mm to the middle of the toothpick). The C string is still the most troublesome, but those chords, the A7 and A7sus4 are not so jarring. But the toothpick in this position makes the it harder to press down first and second frets.

Leaving a toothpick there is hardly a practical solution, so I'm not sure what to do now. I contacted the shop I bought it from here in Prague. It's a music shop that sells a wide range of instruments, but they specialise in guitars. Someone there told me they could calibrate the ukulele or replace it, but I'm reluctant to part with it, having had it such a short time and really grown to like playing and knowing that I'm by nature a lazy sod who has a tendency to lose my practising discipline.

Do you have any nifty solution that would mean I don't have to post the bloody thing back to the shop? (We're in full lockdown here, so I can't take it to the shop and drop it off.)

Thanks again, anthonyg.

Pete

Click to expand...

If the instrument is new, and the shop has offered to repair or replace, then sending it back is what I would recommend. This instrument I suspect is a can of worms that is only just starting to open up as I'm suspecting that the saddle placement could also be wrong. You have an offer so send it back.

anthonyg said:

If the instrument is new, and the shop has offered to repair or replace, then sending it back is what I would recommend. This instrument I suspect is a can of worms that is only just starting to open up as I'm suspecting that the saddle placement could also be wrong. You have an offer so send it back.

Click to expand...

Okay, anthonyg, I will take your advice. Thanks very much for your patient help!

Pete

PeteKreff said:

Okay, anthonyg, I will take your advice. Thanks very much for your patient help!

Pete

Click to expand...

Honestly its for the best. I understand that you want to learn, yet I've spent 5 pages before trying to instruct someone on how to check the instrument, and then when it comes down to it, you need to have a whole bunch of tools to work on the instrument anyway.
Seriously just sending it back is the best way, especially when the simple matchstick/toothpick trick didn't fix it properly.

Hi Pete,

Prague is full of ukulele players - I am one of them. As you are not able to get in personal touch with the shop now due to lockdown government measures, you can still show your uke to fellow musician. I live in Horni Mecholupy if that could help you.

Mirek

Hi anthonyg,

in case you're still interested, I sent the ukulele back to the shop. They replaced it straightaway, but the replacement ukulele has the same problem. Not as horrible as the original instrument, but still noticeably out of tune on the 1st fret. I wrote the company, Ortega, a slightly sarcastic e-mail, asking them if there's any point me sending the ukulele back a second time, i.e. will it be third-time lucky or the same old same old, and asking how much extra money I'd have to spend to get an Ortega ukulele that's in tune. I'm still waiting for a reply, but I expect they won't bother.

Can you recommend any reliable brands for soprano ukuleles up to around 175 euro or quid?

Thank you,

Pete

I received a new Koalana soprano that has the same issue. It is not really playable. I have tried sweetened tuning to find a compromise but it is not promising. Next time I will tune up to D and see if higher tension will improve it. It is quite disappointing that a company like KoAloha has qc issue like this.

PeteKreff said:

Hi anthonyg,

in case you're still interested, I sent the ukulele back to the shop. They replaced it straightaway, but the replacement ukulele has the same problem. Not as horrible as the original instrument, but still noticeably out of tune on the 1st fret. I wrote the company, Ortega, a slightly sarcastic e-mail, asking them if there's any point me sending the ukulele back a second time, i.e. will it be third-time lucky or the same old same old, and asking how much extra money I'd have to spend to get an Ortega ukulele that's in tune. I'm still waiting for a reply, but I expect they won't bother.

Can you recommend any reliable brands for soprano ukuleles up to around 175 euro or quid?
Thank you,
Pete

Click to expand...

Yes its a common problem and a third ukulele is likely to be just the same. The problem is in their manufacturing jig, so ukulele after ukulele is leaving the factory with the same issue.
Sorry, I don't know what to recommend other than only buying in person in a shop and testing them out FIRST, and only taking the instrument in your hands that is good.

Nominally these instruments are repairable, but it takes knowledge, skill and tools to fix them and that = money, which you shouldn't have to spend to just buy an accurately built instrument.

Oh, and the other fix to try of course is the matchstick/toothpick fix on the new instrument and see if that fixes the intonation.

I'm currently using 1.3mm allen (hex) keys on my best ukuleles to fix the intonation. Here's another problem. I have taken these instruments to luthiers, and paid money to have them adjusted, but they still have problems.
Issues around nut placement blindside most of the industry no matter how long they have been in the game.

anthonyg said:

Oh, and the other fix to try of course is the matchstick/toothpick fix on the new instrument and see if that fixes the intonation.

I'm currently using 1.3mm allen (hex) keys on my best ukuleles to fix the intonation. Here's another problem. I have taken these instruments to luthiers, and paid money to have them adjusted, but they still have problems.
Issues around nut placement blindside most of the industry no matter how long they have been in the game.

Click to expand...

Do you have a picture of what to do with toothpick? I assume that saddle compensation might help.

merlin666 said:

Do you have a picture of what to do with toothpick? I assume that saddle compensation might help.

Click to expand...

Sorry, I don't have a picture. You place a toothpick/matchstick/allen key, on the fretboard, under the strings and firmly up against the inside surface of the nut.
Yes its nut compensation/correction.
Saddle compensation can help, but the principle is that you need to find where the problem is first and address where the problem is and not somewhere else.
Trying to fix a nut position problem by making adjustments at the saddle leads to a real mess of notes going in and out of tune up and down the fretboard.

See this thread for all the gory details, https://forum.ukuleleunderground.com/showthread.php?139438-(Another)-Intonation-Question

Mirek Tim Patek said:

Hi Pete,

Prague is full of ukulele players - I am one of them. As you are not able to get in personal touch with the shop now due to lockdown government measures, you can still show your uke to fellow musician. I live in Horni Mecholupy if that could help you.

Mirek

Click to expand...

Hi Mirek,

I am in discussions with kytary. cz. Two people from the company told me that soprano ukuleles are for kids (which I don't agree with) and they advised me to get a tenor ukulele, but they only have one model in the right price range, an Ortega that's really unattractive. I am thinking about getting a concert ukulele - apparently there are fewer intonation problems with concert ukes - and they have quite a nice range of electro-acoustics for under 6000,- Kc. One is a Fender Grace Wanderwaal Signature Concert ukulele, one is a Fender Fullerton Strat, and the final option is a slightly more expensive Lanikai. Right now I'm waiting for one of their guitar workshop experts to call me to discuss it. The company is pretty reliable, so I will ask for their advice and buy one of those three options.


Thanks for your offer of help, Mirek. Maybe some time soon...

anthonyg said:

Yes its a common problem and a third ukulele is likely to be just the same. The problem is in their manufacturing jig, so ukulele after ukulele is leaving the factory with the same issue.
Sorry, I don't know what to recommend other than only buying in person in a shop and testing them out FIRST, and only taking the instrument in your hands that is good.

Nominally these instruments are repairable, but it takes knowledge, skill and tools to fix them and that = money, which you shouldn't have to spend to just buy an accurately built instrument.

Click to expand...

Hi, anthonyg,

thanks again for your advice. I've discussed my problem with the dealer, which is a reliable company I've been a regular customer of (for non-ukulele musical needs). They said it's quite hard to find a soprano uke with good intonation at a low price and advised me to get a tenor uke, but they only have one electro-acoustic tenor in the same price range and that has really ugly design. So I'm thinking of getting a concert uke: either a Fender Grace Wanderwaal Signature or a Lanika MA-CEC. Both have high-quality electronics (Fishman Kula) and have received good reviews. So I'll probably plump for one of them.
I will also ask the dealer to get one of its guitar experts to make sure it's intonation is good before they send it to me, as well as attaching a strap button if I get the Grace Wanderwaal Signature, because that doesn't have any strap button, for some reason, and I certainly find it easier to play with a strap on (not a strap-on).

Thanks again,

Pete