Sometimes a little music theory is good

Joyful Uke said:

Oh, it's a real fact? Shows you how little I know.
So, what do you do with that fact?
Maybe I can get back to trying to learn music theory if I knew what to do with it.

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It's been years (many years) since I learned music theory; and I don't work in any kind of music related field. So whatever I still remember, should it be labeled memorization or just realizing something that makes sense? I mean, I kind of know enough English grammar to type up this post; would that count as memorizing grammar rules?

I'm sure over the years, I've forgotten most of the music theory; but there are still a lot that we use everyday when we play music. I don't find it like memorizing that (0232) is a G chord because this I actually forget (and sometimes think it'll give me a D until I hear it). However, if I really can't hear this chord and really, really can't remember whether it is a G or D, I can work it out with music theory (which I know but can't seem to forget as easily so... would it be memorizing or just some kind of realization kind of thing?)

I think if you know more theory than you can use, then it is not that useful. However, I think the topics posted in this thread are pretty basic and are things that you'd use everyday. So, I don't think you can forget it even if you try to.

Joyful Uke said:

So, it's helpful if you play chords? I don't sing, so I just fingerpick.

I keep circling back to music theory, because it seems like I *should* learn it, but I get bored because it's just a lot of memorization, (so it doesn't save memorization), and I have no idea how to apply it to anything.

That's the missing key for me, I think. What do I do with it?

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Even if you play single notes, chances are, you are using notes from some type of scale. Knowing some theory can let you figure out how those scales are built. And arpeggios are broken chords, so if you play that, you are still playing chords in a sense.

Also, theory can help you with harmony, recently I learned chord melody on this board (actually, I have actually learned it many years ago but totally forgot that I did); if you know some theory, you can add harmony to the notes yourself.

I don't want to sell you music theory or fun music facts.

However, this is how I look at math like algebra (which I just taught my son at home school), I told him that it's taken people centuries to figure out that stuff and here you can learn it in a few months. You can use it in you daily live from now on. That's really amazing. (I actually had to re-learn a few things like imaginary numbers... but I don't tell him that.)

I think of music theory similarly. The basic stuff sill stay with you for life because you use it often; the more esoteric things you'll naturally forget if you don't use it often (like imaginary numbers). But it comes to you back really fast.

ukantor said:

When I printed off the Tiki King transposing wheel device, it changed my life.


John Colter

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Me too. Have one on the coffee table and use it all the time. Getting better at it so I don't have to use it as often.

FWIW, here's a quote from a Berklee professor:
"When you don't know it, music theory seems like rocket science; when you do, it's more like plumbing."

ripock said:

I haven't read this thread because I feel absolutely no kinship with people who refuse to understand their instrument. So I don't know the context of 2212221, but those numbers are the intervals (measured in half steps) of the Ionian mode/major scale

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Who here has refused to understand their instrument?

I feel a kinship with anyone who enjoys a ukulele, no matter skill level or knowledge about music.

Someone not long ago told me that they had a ukulele and they loved it. I asked what kind of ukulele. "Red!" the person said with delight. I asked what kind of music they liked to play, and it seems like they just liked to bang away on it. But, it gave that person joy, so that's great. And who knows what it might lead to. Some day, when they have more time, maybe they'll even learn if they have a soprano, concert, or tenor ukulele, or what brand it is. For now, "Red!" works for them, as does banging away on it. Somehow, I feel compelled to add that this is an adult, not a child. But we all start somewhere, and a hobby is about enjoyment for many of us.

For me, this is a hobby. One that I greatly enjoy. But, work and family must come first, so though I get to play most every day, there is only so much time in a day for a hobby. I'm a little more knowledgeable than the person with the red ukulele, I think, since I know that I play concert ukueles, know the brands, can tune it, change strings, and can fingerpick a number of pieces that I have the tab for. Some days, my playing even sounds pretty good, I think.

So, I failed to know what 2212221 was, but now that you've told me, maybe that can lead to me looking up what an Ionian mode/major scale is, and what one can do with it. Progress!

Meanwhile, I've got a tab of "For No One" (Beatles) almost memorized, (ah, I do memorize things!), and that's what I'll spend a little time on, before family obligations take over the rest of the day.

Enjoy your ukuleles, whether they are red or not.

"I haven't read this thread because I feel absolutely no kinship with people who refuse to understand their instrument."

Ripock, I can understand why you might not find a thread interesting and would therefore not wish to follow it. I don't understand why you choose to declare this on the forum.

John Colter

clear said:

Perhaps he meant the major scale? WWHWWWH, but written at 1/2 steps.

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Yes-- as learned recently here: each fret is a half step, and that same pattern can be represented by numbers.

So, each number represents the number of frets you move between each note:

2-2-1-2-2-2-1

Or, in phone number format (which sticks in my brain Much Better, and with apologies to whomever I'm failing to cite!):
221-2221

So, Joyful Uke:

1) I appreciate your perspective. Thanks for sharing.

And, 2)

Joyful Uke said:

So, I failed to know what 2212221 was, but now that you've told me, maybe that can lead to me looking up what an Ionian mode/major scale is, and what one can do with it. Progress!

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[My apologies if this too simplistic for you or anyone else; I know how to do stuff, but not necessarily what things are called, and this is one of the first things that sits in my brain well, for whatever reason, with so many connections following quickly....]

Very simply, here's a starting place I enjoyed, as I learn the fretboard better myself (years of more enthusiasm than knowledge with guitar, loving everything about falling into ukulele and determined to grow) : choose any note (one string, fretted), whether or not you know the note/name.

Now, simply fret and pluck the next note 2 frets up, and then 2 frets up again, and then 1 fret up from there.

You'll likely soon recognize a familiar do-re-mi, with the 'phone number' informing whether or not you're fingering two frets up or one, for the next note: 221-2221. Moving from string to string brings the steps between strings into focus, and can bring further understanding.

Naming/learning the notes, preemptively, at the same time, or as a follow-up, leads to other things, when ready/desired.

~ S.

What I was saying is that you get a few bits and pieces of theory like the interval “phone number” or pentatonic diagrams, chord construction, etc along your way on your musical journey and over time these things start to gel and that knowledge improves your playing (sometimes without really thinking too much about it).

Joyful Uke said:

So, I failed to know what 2212221 was, but now that you've told me, maybe that can lead to me looking up what an Ionian mode/major scale is, and what one can do with it. Progress!

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And that's about what I had been saying - I don't think I know anything about music theory, and I hadn't ever heard of either this numerical thing or the Ionian Scale, but...

When it was explained that that those numbers are the 1/2 step intervals between whole notes, i realized I knew it - I remember in elementary school having my beloved Mrs. Fergerson having us go up the scale with "do - di - re- ri - mi - fa - fi - sol - si - la- li - ti -do" , which I learned a couple of years ago is also called Solfege, and appears to be this 2-2-1-2-2-2-1 thing.

So it still comes up as the I don't know that I know it, until I need to explain it, and then I realize I do know something about it, whether I know the name or not.

On the whole, I think that being able to explain what you're doing musically is more important than knowing the name of that thing. Academics may disagree, and they have every right to.

ksiegel said:

I think that being able to explain what you're doing musically is more important than knowing the name of that thing. Academics may disagree, and they have every right to.

-Kurt​

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But how can you explain what you're doing, if you don't have the vocabulary to articulate what you're doing? A major (or Ionian) aspect of theory is the vocabulary that enables you to share your ideas to others. If, instead of playing C F G, you play Bb, Eb, F, you need terms like transposition and intervals to explain what you're doing.

Spieler said:
"[My apologies if this too simplistic for you or anyone else; I know how to do stuff, but not necessarily what things are called, and this is one of the first things that sits in my brain well, for whatever reason, with so many connections following quickly....] "

Nothing is too simplistic for me. And I appreciate the explanation, and the "phone number" hint for remembering it. That really does make it easier.

ksiegel said:
"So it still comes up as the I don't know that I know it, until I need to explain it, and then I realize I do know something about it, whether I know the name or not."

I'm thinking that I don't know anything, but I guess I do know a bit, but like you, don't know the names/terminology.

"On the whole, I think that being able to explain what you're doing musically is more important than knowing the name of that thing. Academics may disagree, and they have every right to."

IA, being able to explain what you're doing might be more important than using the academics' words. I suspect that there are a whole lot more people like me, who don't know the academic terms, but might be able to follow what you're saying when you explain it.

If this was your profession, you'd probably need to be able to use the "proper" wording, but if it's your hobby, and you're speaking to someone else who isn't a professional, the ability to explain is probably more important. We're all at different points on our musical journey, but we probably can all get behind a good explanation, even if we haven't learned the "proper" words yet.

Whether you're happily banging away on a red ukulele, or a master of both music theory and ukuleles, it's all good, IMO, as long as you're enjoying it.

A dog just declared a potty emergency, so off we go.

I am a musician hobbyist who learned to play various musical instruments on my own (piano, saxophones, ukulele), then studied music theory and taught myself how to read music at a later age after I retired. For me, learning these 2 things (theory and reading ability) were the best things I ever did, along with teaching my grandson how to play these various instruments.

For the ukulele, I find the fretboard/fingerboard stickers as the most useful visual aid for learning and teaching fretboard scales, chords, transposition, and improvisation. For this reason, I decided to keep the stickers on my most useful tenor.

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ripock said:

But how can you explain what you're doing, if you don't have the vocabulary to articulate what you're doing? A major (or Ionian) aspect of theory is the vocabulary that enables you to share your ideas to others. If, instead of playing C F G, you play Bb, Eb, F, you need terms like transposition and intervals to explain what you're doing.

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I disagree. My elementary school music teacher undoubtedly had the vocabulary, but didn't need it to explain to us kids. Shape note singing doesn't need the vocabulary, but explains it. When I can tell people to slide up a fret, or down a fret and they get it by the sound - and then I tell them the name of the chord, for future reference, it works.

I learned to play guitar playing by ear, and memorizing chords from the back of a book (Alfred's Basic Guitar Course, Book 1.) I can sort of follow notation - can't read it though - but I know up and down.

I know that the distance between most frets is a half step - I understand the black keys on the piano, even if I don't know how to play it - and if you want to tell me that is an interval, I'll believe you. But show me, and I'll understand it.

I do know that most of what we are speaking of represents the music of the Western World; Much traditional Asian music has a completely different scale. I don't know it, but I enjoy listening to it.

"you can just say "secondary dominant" and anyone else in the know will immediately understand what you mean"

But the rest of us won't have a clue what you mean, apparently, even Sir Paul.

So I guess the way to approach it is: know your audience. If they know the fancy words, use them. If they don't, you may have to do a bit (or a lot) more explaining, but that will help us learn. Have patience with those of us who aren't "in the know." Maybe we'll get there some day.

Earlier in this thread, someone mentioned those spinning charts for transposing. Those charts are a very good introduction to a lot of theory. I have one of those spinny charts and it actually tells you, among other things, what the secondary dominants are. So at the risk of preaching to the choir (or preaching to atheists, as the case may be), get one of those $10 chord wheels and it will serve as a good intro

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Enjoy your ukuleles, whatever your skill level.
That's what it's all about.

The important thing that’s missing is the idea that Theory is written about Music, and not Vice-Versa.

You don’t need to be able to analyze the music of Cage, Schoenberg, and Elliot Carter to play the Uke well. But it’s REAL useful to know about the kinds of patterns that recur again and again in music.

If you know what I-VI-IV-V means, you can play a TON of songs, which is no small thing to be able to do just by pattern recognition.

If you can play it in G, D, A, and C, then you can play those same songs in lots of different keys for different singers, even if you don’t have a transposed chord sheet.

I’ve always rather suspected that people’s aversion to “Music Theory” has to do with it’s being treated as a Weird Abstract Thing and not “Hey, look at this Cool thing Neil Sedaka did with a really basic chord progression in “Breaking Up is Hard to Do,”

clear said:

A few days ago, I overheard my son playing the scales on my guitar. I hadn't taught him anything on the guitar because he showed zero interest in the uke.

I was so surprised so I asked him about it later. He said that he figured out that each fret is 1/2 step and he already know the scale increments. He played the scale on a single string.

Well, long story short, I bought him a guitar, and he's really into it. It's too bad he's not into the uke, then I wouldn't have to buy him anything. But, I'm happy, I jam together with him almost every day.

So, I'm thinking, music theory is kind of boring, but knowing just a little can sometimes be really useful.

I think the realization that each fret is 1/2 step increment is good to know; for example, it explains why barre chords work, or even without barring, how to play up the neck.

What has been the most useful to you?

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Yes, a little is good, but just a little.

Isn't there a place on the fretboard where there's a full step? When I started playing the harmonica, I was annoyed that the notes going from one slot to another weren't even - that half step/whole step again. It wasn't till a few years ago that I learned that the fault wasn't with harmonica design - it was with music itself.

Jerryc41 said:

Yes, a little is good, but just a little.

Isn't there a place on the fretboard where there's a full step? When I started playing the harmonica, I was annoyed that the notes going from one slot to another weren't even - that half step/whole step again. It wasn't till a few years ago that I learned that the fault wasn't with harmonica design - it was with music itself.

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There's no place on the fret board where there's a full step. I think the confusion might come from that the E and F notes and also the B and C notes are only 1/2 step apart while all the other letters are 1 step apart. So, maybe people think E to F and B to C are also 1 step apart (i.e. very logical thinking but unfortunately wrong in this case). Thera are a lot of weirdness with music theory because theory came after music; kind of like the English grammar. If we are to redesign everything, maybe we'll have decimal music theory and decimal Grammar.

I must be the only person who's never played a harmonica; I don't think I've ever even held a harmonica in my life. So, this might not be correct, but I remember hearing them play harmony. If so, then I think that's why the slots aren't arranged linearly (what you called "even" in your post above). I imagine when blowing thru them, you'd sound a bunch of adjacent slots; so to play multiple, harmonious notes, the notes might be arranged in fourths and fifths instead of linearly.