Am I In the Wrong? Am I a Jerk?

The answer to this question isn't really a cut and dry, black and white answer, and in trying to be understanding to both sides of this story, I sort of empathize with both parties. Right off the bat though, I will have to admit that I do sort of agree with the disgruntled guy about opening their mouth and 'ruining' a potential score for someone else, but at the same time I'd like someone to do that for me if I was the seller, so it goes both ways here. If I'd like someone to let me know if I have something valuable, I can't really complain if someone more knowledgeable informs a seller of the same thing about an item I want. It's a double standard, and you can't have your cake and eat it too, and then act like a spoiled little turd. One thing is for sure though, that guy's behavior and the way he conducted himself in his emails is absolutely unacceptable, and there's no excuse for that type of behavior. He's giving you a hard time for informing someone else about what they have simply because he wanted to profit from it. His reasoning has nothing to do with ethics or being a better person, he's just a greedy s.o.b. who was beat at his own game!

I once was in the market for a bass guitar. I saw an ad on Craigslist, met with the guy and bought the bass and an amp from him. I have no idea the year of the bass, and it was gross. It reeked of cigars and had grime and corrosion all over it. He said he used to play it in bar bands back in the 80's and hasn't played in years. I took the bass home, took it apart, dated the pots, the neck and serial number. It all came back 100% original to late '75 early '76, and cleaned up to where it looked practically new and is now worth about $1,800. I sold the bass amp that it came with for $60. I was told by people that I was dishonest and should have gone back and told the previous owner, and returned the bass after I discovered it's value. I disagree because the guy was savvy enough with a computer to post an ad on Craigslist, he could have easily typed the serial number into google or taken 5 minutes to look on ebay to see what they are worth, but for whatever reason he did not. That's his fault, not mine.

Today there are so many tools at our disposal that make it so much easier for people to research and find out what things are worth, and for the most part it takes relatively little effort and time. Most people do not want to put in the effort or time to do the research because they are lazy, and I have no sympathy for those people, and if they sell an item for a lot less than it's worth because of laziness, then you can't blame the buyer, you blame the seller.

I think every situation is different. If I was at a garage sale and a little old lady had a vintage uke for sale for like $10 I think I'd be compelled to tell her it's real value. If it was a younger person who is most likely savvy with a computer, I'd be inclined not to, and take advantage of the situation. I know this probably is not morally correct, but I'm just being honest, and I'd dare say that this may be the way a lot of us would approach a situation like this, but are afraid to admit it.

You could look at it this way: The guy complaining about you is the jerk. It was the moral and right thing to do in this case to help the seller out. The guy is just angry because he cannot afford the uke he wants.

Or


Maybe he is right and you should have just let the auction go by itself. It is the seller's duty to find out what he has and price it accordingly.

For some reason I am leaning more with the guy that lost the bid, because, like I said, it is the seller's duty to get the price. Not quite sure.

Without responding to anyone in particular in the thread, I will make the following blanket observations:

1. There is nothing wrong with finding a bargain.
2. Auctions, by their very nature, mean that an item will sell for whatever amount a person will pay for them. Therefore, informing someone as to the value of their item should not impact the auction, since it will still sell for high bid.
3. Any individual who wants to help another individual out by educating them on what they are selling has every right to do that.

consitter said:

Getting something for $10 off some unwitting person when you know it's actually worth hundreds is not "hunting bargains". It's dishonest. There's no other way of putting it.

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True enough. However, "The starting bid for this uke was $100. It sold for $153.50." That's a lot different from your statement, consitter. Also, this is ebay we're talking about here. This isn't a scam. This isn't someone offering to buy your cubic zirconia when he really knows what you have is a diamond. Seriously, now. The item was available for anyone to view and for anyone to buy. I really doubt that Justin's question being posted had any bearing on the final price at all. As it was said before, the seller didn't raise their reserve or relist the item at a higher price in response to Justin's question. Anyone who wanted to bid could have, and the item was bid up to $153.50. The other guy got so mad over something that probably had no impact on him at all. That's the real tragedy. Justin got ripped a new one for something that was't truly egregious, whether it was right or wrong.

One of my other hobbies is book collecting. I buy and sell a lot of collectible books on ebay. I have sold several in the last year that fetched prices over $1000. Each of those auctions were started with a $0.99 opening bid with no reserve. My strategy is that by starting it lower with no reserve, more people are initially interested and become vested in the auction. I have seen bidding wars that drive my items much higher than I thought was market value, and I have also seen a lack of interest cause me to have to sell a book for 25% of what I thought it was worth. This is the "open market" working as it does. Was I supposed to stop the bidding on my successful auctions once they reached my perceived market value? Was the person who won my $400 book supposed to cough up another $300 when they won the auction for $100? When you put something up for auction, there is risk. Sometimes risk is rewarding, sometimes not. I also just sold a nice ukulele on ebay for a significant loss because I wanted to sell it fast. I listed it as a "buy-it-now with best offer," and I accepted a low offer. That was my decision, and I was ok with it. The buyer was happy to get a good deal, but he certainly didn't offer to cover my loss, and I would never expect him to do that. Instead, I was happy that he was happy with the uke, and I got the fast money I needed.

We can argue all day over the virtues of the free market, but why is this a question of personal integrity?

I can see why other potential buyers might be upset, because sometimes it is awesome to get a really good deal on something because the seller doesn't know what it's really worth, but the nutcase who sent you so many nasty messages and threats needs to take their Haldol and lay down in a quiet room. Even if it was a Martin 5K listed as an "old toy guitar" by a clueless seller, I don't think any kind of intervention would justify the anguish, hatred, and threats directed at you. Your intentions of educating the seller were good, and I doubt you affected the outcome of the auction in any significant way. I probably wouldn't have done what you did, but that doesn't mean you were in the wrong or a jerk. Don't lose sleep over it!

Also kind of strange that your advice was posted publicly, and that knucklehead managed to find you and harass you about it. That was beyond your control. If I were the seller I would've edited the original description and omitted your username for privacy's sake instead. I hope eBay sorts it out and takes action against the person who harassed you.

I feel a point is being missed. Whether it was right or wrong seems is up to interpetation. I think you did right. The big point is the continual harrassment after the fact. That is what needs to be dealt with by Ebay.

RichM said:

Without responding to anyone in particular in the thread, I will make the following blanket observations:

1. There is nothing wrong with finding a bargain.
2. Auctions, by their very nature, mean that an item will sell for whatever amount a person will pay for them. Therefore, informing someone as to the value of their item should not impact the auction, since it will still sell for high bid.
3. Any individual who wants to help another individual out by educating them on what they are selling has every right to do that.

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Did not look at it that way, good point.

As a veteran eBay seller, in my opinion, the only one hard and fast rule about auctions is this: an item is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

Depending on what I'm selling, I will start bids at 99 cents when I know that I can get well over $100 for an item. Starting low can actually increase bidding momentum - you just never know, and that's part of the game. If someone emailed me to say "Hey, that thing is worth more than a buck you know!" I'd either ignore it or send them a private thank-you - I definitely wouldn't post their message to my listing. I wouldn't go so far as to say the seller was a jerk for doing so, but I find it odd that he did.

Trust me I have and I am. =)

strumsilly said:

Oscar Wild once said ,"No good deed goes unpunished." you tried to be helpful, let it go and play your uke.

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I understand that perhaps I shouldn't have given a price. But my estimation based on experience and observation wasn't far from the sellers opening bid. $50 bucks people. I'm a poor college kid and I still think its trivial for someone to get so worked up over losing an auction over $50. If you really want something and you cant afford to spend another $50 on it, then maybe you should reconsider it. My main intention was to point out to the seller that he didnt have an Avalon (Which typically bring more money than supertones by the way).

Telperion said:

Yes, but the more I think about it, the more I think that justinlcecil should have refrained from pointing out values to the seller. It's one thing to point out item details, especially on old ukes where identification can be difficult. Some sellers will even add lines into their listing like "Any information to help identify this instrument would be appreciated," etc., etc. Valuation, however, is another story. I definitely agree that the other guy was way out of line and nobody should care so much about such a trivial thing, but you have to consider the nature of the venue. Ebay is not some cooperative swap venue, it's an online auction/marketplace. "Honesty and thoughtfulness" have their place, but I see no problem with people hunting for bargains. I'm guessing that most people here have had some instance in their life where they had a stroke of good luck and got a great deal on something (uke or not). That can be a lot of fun, even thrilling at times, to score a bargain. I wouldn't want to take that apportunity away from people, which is sort of what happened here.

And to compare a bargain-hunter to people who "do half-ass jobs for people to make a quick buck," isn't right either. I believe there's a big distinction between a scam artist and someone looking for a good deal - even if they are planning to turn around and sell the item for a profit. What ever happened to accountability? Why are people always trying to blame someone else for outcomes they could have controlled? The seller of the banjo uke had their opportunity to do some due diligence and educate themselves on the value of their item before putting it out into the marketplace. They didn't do it. Just like the people who hire your so-called "gypsies" should do some due dilligence and understand that you get what you pay for. Do some research, have some common sense, and problems like these will go away.

Sheesh, now I'm getting all worked up and I'm going to start quoting John Galt or something.

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gyosh said:

I think he did "the right thing" and it blew up in his face because the seller posted his comments out in the open.

I recently stopped at a garage sale because I saw a uke in a pile of stuff. It had a $10.00 sticker on it right next to the KK on the headstock. Would I have felt good about myself if I lowballed him down to $5.00?

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How much did you pay him for the kamaka?

janeray1940 said:

an item is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

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This was going to be my contribution ..... and it's true, whether it's a uke, a car, or a house....

Haha. I don't hate you. Asking if I was a jerk wasn't to ask it in general but to ask it in reference to the messages he sent me. I'm not sure if you read some of my earlier responses but I basically said that I wouldn't normally offer up information like that to just any seller. But this was a supertone banjolele. Ukes that I own and know how little information there is about them on the internet (At least there used to be back when I was searching for them). More than anything I felt sympathetic to the seller. He made it clear that he researched the uke to find out what it was and came up with the false (but close) Avalon banjolele. In reality pointing out that it was a supertone and not an avalon would help the buyers and not the seller because they bring substantially more $$$ when they have their resonators. I will keep the buyers in mind next time.

redpaul1 said:

Justin

You asked "Am I in the wrong? Am I a jerk?" Not knowing you personally, I have no opinion to offer on the 2nd part of your question As to the first part, however, I'm starting to lean to the opinion that you were.

Markets are all about, and always about, information. First thing you learn in Economics 101: "The price system is a mechanism for signalling the optimum allocation of scarce resources among alternative ends." Prices yield information and information yields prices.

Did your frustrated e-Bay bidder go over the top in his response? Over a matter of $50? Absolutely. Does his response make him look like a jerk? Undeniably. Does he have reasonable cause for a gripe? Well, sorry, but I think he probably does.

If you got the plot twist 10 minutes into a 120 minute movie, do you think your fellow movie-goers would be happy if you shared that information with them? Might you imagine that one or two of them might get so irate at your lowering of their anticipated value of their evening's entertainment experience, that they might start telling you there and then exactly what they thought of you and your need to share your knowledge with others?

Normally, I wouldn't bother offering my 2¢ worth (& why do we call it 2¢ worth, if not in acknowledgement that information - and expert opinion - has value?), but you did ask. Don't hate me.

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Nobody should feel guilty about getting a bargain. I think the banjo ukulele in question was a bargain...If only it didn't have those modern geared tuners. I would have paid $200.

kissing said:

Those hate messages you got were truly over-the-top, but I agree with the above opinions.

I acknowledge that to the vast majority that appears to be applauding your actions come from a particular righteous perspective.
However, I don't think the world is that naive when it comes to things related to money. I don't think we need to "feel bad" about finding a bargain. Sometimes you get lucky.

I really don't believe people should feel guilty about finding a bargain.
Sometimes you get lucky and hit the jackpot. The seller may or may not be aware of the true value of something.
They have determined that the object is of no value to them and have not gone into the effort of doing their research.
I'd be pretty annoyed too if someone rained on my chance to grab a real bargain.

However, I would not lose control like that person did to you on eBay. That was an atrocity

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I think you nailed it Rich.

RichM said:

Without responding to anyone in particular in the thread, I will make the following blanket observations:

1. There is nothing wrong with finding a bargain.
2. Auctions, by their very nature, mean that an item will sell for whatever amount a person will pay for them. Therefore, informing someone as to the value of their item should not impact the auction, since it will still sell for high bid.
3. Any individual who wants to help another individual out by educating them on what they are selling has every right to do that.

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nongdam said:

That guy was a jerk but I don't understand why people have to inform sellers.

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It's called empathy.

Couldn't agree more. It was only a question of personal integrity in the sense that the bidder placed mine in to question. So I provided the UU community with his messages and my single response to see if the bidder was right.

Telperion said:

True enough. However, "The starting bid for this uke was $100. It sold for $153.50." That's a lot different from your statement, consitter. Also, this is ebay we're talking about here. This isn't a scam. This isn't someone offering to buy your cubic zirconia when he really knows what you have is a diamond. Seriously, now. The item was available for anyone to view and for anyone to buy. I really doubt that Justin's question being posted had any bearing on the final price at all. As it was said before, the seller didn't raise their reserve or relist the item at a higher price in response to Justin's question. Anyone who wanted to bid could have, and the item was bid up to $153.50. The other guy got so mad over something that probably had no impact on him at all. That's the real tragedy. Justin got ripped a new one for something that was't truly egregious, whether it was right or wrong.

One of my other hobbies is book collecting. I buy and sell a lot of collectible books on ebay. I have sold several in the last year that fetched prices over $1000. Each of those auctions were started with a $0.99 opening bid with no reserve. My strategy is that by starting it lower with no reserve, more people are initially interested and become vested in the auction. I have seen bidding wars that drive my items much higher than I thought was market value, and I have also seen a lack of interest cause me to have to sell a book for 25% of what I thought it was worth. This is the "open market" working as it does. Was I supposed to stop the bidding on my successful auctions once they reached my perceived market value? Was the person who won my $400 book supposed to cough up another $300 when they won the auction for $100? When you put something up for auction, there is risk. Sometimes risk is rewarding, sometimes not. I also just sold a nice ukulele on ebay for a significant loss because I wanted to sell it fast. I listed it as a "buy-it-now with best offer," and I accepted a low offer. That was my decision, and I was ok with it. The buyer was happy to get a good deal, but he certainly didn't offer to cover my loss, and I would never expect him to do that. Instead, I was happy that he was happy with the uke, and I got the fast money I needed.

We can argue all day over the virtues of the free market, but why is this a question of personal integrity?

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Telperion said:

One of my other hobbies is book collecting. I buy and sell a lot of collectible books on ebay. I have sold several in the last year that fetched prices over $1000. Each of those auctions were started with a $0.99 opening bid with no reserve. My strategy is that by starting it lower with no reserve, more people are initially interested and become vested in the auction. I have seen bidding wars that drive my items much higher than I thought was market value, and I have also seen a lack of interest cause me to have to sell a book for 25% of what I thought it was worth.

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So here is the true test. Would the original poster return the monies received on an item he had for sale if it fetched 50% more that what he thought the value really was? Its the market that actually sets the value and in many cases the audience. It may be that a used Kamaka at a garage sale is worth $10 cause you won't find the right buyer. It appears the one guy that was interested didn't buy it. I wonder what the seller did? Did he raise the price? Did it sell for $500 at the garage sale. I'm guessing no.

I am only losing sleep because I am horribly sick right now. BAD CONGESTION horrible headaches and sore throat as well =/ And the seller posted my message not my username. I assume the bidder messaged the seller asking for my ID.

haole said:

I can see why other potential buyers might be upset, because sometimes it is awesome to get a really good deal on something because the seller doesn't know what it's really worth, but the nutcase who sent you so many nasty messages and threats needs to take their Haldol and lay down in a quiet room. Even if it was a Martin 5K listed as an "old toy guitar" by a clueless seller, I don't think any kind of intervention would justify the anguish, hatred, and threats directed at you. Your intentions of educating the seller were good, and I doubt you affected the outcome of the auction in any significant way. I probably wouldn't have done what you did, but that doesn't mean you were in the wrong or a jerk. Don't lose sleep over it!

Also kind of strange that your advice was posted publicly, and that knucklehead managed to find you and harass you about it. That was beyond your control. If I were the seller I would've edited the original description and omitted your username for privacy's sake instead. I hope eBay sorts it out and takes action against the person who harassed you.

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