"It Is A Puzzlement!"

CeeJay, you are absolutely correct. I was gonna tell Wicked that she (must be a woman with a name like that) came the closest to having it right (after me). But it's really stupid. Why have a minor that dosen't sound particularly minor? So I have come to the same conclusion that Rllink, and you both did. It doesn't make much sense, so just get over it. I'm not even gonna bother learning minor (ha!) 7th chords. I really enjoyed this thread though.

A. Why would the word "wicked" have a gender?
B. There is no debate here.... C6 is the same chord as Am7. All 6 chords are the same as the m7 of their relative minor. That's just how it is.
C. It makes perfect sense.
 
Well, Wicked: A. Wicked just does, and, to me, it's feminine. B. I'm not debating the names of the chords. I believe the chord chart. It's all the nonsense about them being two different sounds. If your instructor tells you to play C# and you play Db--IT'S THE SAME SOUND! So why have a C# chart and a Db chart. There's a better way to write the chord charts for both type chords. C. If it made perfect sense, we wouldn't be debating it. D. If you are a male and I have somehow insulted you, I'm sorry. I'm an old man and get excited easily.
 
ubulele, I don't know what the heck you're talkin' about. I just skimmed it, but, watch yourself, you're gonna explode! I'll read it again, but it didn't seem to have a lot to do with the debate.
 
Well, Wicked: A. Wicked just does, and, to me, it's feminine. B. I'm not debating the names of the chords. I believe the chord chart. It's all the nonsense about them being two different sounds. If your instructor tells you to play C# and you play Db--IT'S THE SAME SOUND! So why have a C# chart and a Db chart. There's a better way to write the chord charts for both type chords. C. If it made perfect sense, we wouldn't be debating it. D. If you are a male and I have somehow insulted you, I'm sorry. I'm an old man and get excited easily.

The two chords absolutely sound the same... They are the same notes. It is where you use them that defines their major or minor quality.
 
ubulele, I don't know what the heck you're talkin' about. I just skimmed it, but, watch yourself, you're gonna explode! I'll read it again, but it didn't seem to have a lot to do with the debate.

You asked a question, you got answers. Music theory is a vast and complex topic. If you're not willing to read knowledgeable posts and would rather just skim, then you'll have to settle for the answer "just because." Trust us, the same fingerings make the same sounds, but in the context of a given song in a given key, the same chord can have different names. Because music. If you want to know why, then you'll have to learn something.
 
Well. Wicked, without any doubt at all, you probably know more about chords than I do. I'm a self taught musician, and all my instruments have been wind instruments except keyboard which I don't play well. I started this raging debate to try to understand the "puzzlement", but then it got to be fun and very interesting to me. What I learned though was that both groups were the same yet different, and that was that--nyah-nyah-nyah. Since I mostly like to play folk music (all kinds), I probably won't run across minor seventh chords much anyway, and I can just skip them.

So thanks for the debate. You finished second right after me.
 
Ahoy, acmespaceship, yes I did, and I did settle for just because. That's good enough in this case. I really enjoyed the debate, and I learned enough to satisfy curiosity. Music, at least to me, is not the life or death struggle it is to other folks. To me it's just mostly for fun.

And you're still hung up on the chord names. That's not what the debate was about.
 
ubulele, I'm sorry if my comment to you before was insulting. I was just kidding'', and I appreciate that you're trying to help me. But your info is above my head to say the least. I'll read it and maybe learn something from it, but it's really a bit much. I'm an old man who just plays for fun these days. I had a ball earlier today playing hymns on my alto flute. Yesterday, I played Celtic Music on my Irish flute. I've been playing music all my life, but I haven't had much to do with chords. I can play lots of instruments, but my theory may be a bit weak. Anyway, I'll read your info over and see what I can get out of it. Thanks again for your help.
 
The thing about music theory is there's a lot of it, and much if it is completely optional. The other thing is its supposed to be helpful, but it isn't often explained very well to someone who's not versed in it.
 
Ubulele, I enjoyed your post. I'm a relative novice to music theory and did have to take my time, going slowly through the explanation but I did understand it. It is a complex subject and sometimes a discussion can get beyond my ability to understand, given my limited background but I did get a better understanding of chord formation. Early on, I too was curious when I stumbled on two identical fingerings having different names and with my most rudimentary understanding of music theory, I wrote it off to the fact that with just 4 strings and limited reach one can only make a finite number of fingerings and in varying keys, some might turn out to be the same and that you will call them one name rather than the other, depending which key the music is written in. Kind of like why we use the sharp notation or the flat...it depending on the key. Your explanation filled in a lot of the blanks.

If one asks a question, one should be prepared for some pretty knowledgable answers here on UU. Sometimes I have asked questions as a novice where the answer or solution to a problem was beyond my scope (like a repair or adjustment) and I needed to defer to a professional, but sometimes with the explanation folks gave, I could do something myself, if I carefully digested what they were saying to me. This discussion seems to follow on those lines. The answer was given by folks with superior knowledge of music theory and one either makes the effort to learn more and try to understand it or just accepts it as an issue better left for the professionals.
 
Chords are defined by the intervals between the notes in them. The interesting thing about diminished 7th chords is that they are the only chords in which all the intervals are the same, minor 3rds stacked up on top of each other. So, logically, you can see that there are really only 3 diminished 7th cords, that is, diminished chords with different notes in them. That's because once you get to the third series of stacked minor thirds, you've covered all the notes in the chromatic scale, and going any further simply repeats combinations already played. All the diminished chords are simply inversions of one of the three. Once you see this symmetry, the mystery of diminished chords goes "poof," and you will be very comfortable with them.
 
Ubulele, I enjoyed your post. I'm a relative novice to music theory and did have to take my time, going slowly through the explanation but I did understand it. It is a complex subject and sometimes a discussion can get beyond my ability to understand, given my limited background but I did get a better understanding of chord formation. Early on, I too was curious when I stumbled on two identical fingerings having different names and with my most rudimentary understanding of music theory, I wrote it off to the fact that with just 4 strings and limited reach one can only make a finite number of fingerings and in varying keys, some might turn out to be the same and that you will call them one name rather than the other, depending which key the music is written in. Kind of like why we use the sharp notation or the flat...it depending on the key. Your explanation filled in a lot of the blanks.

If one asks a question, one should be prepared for some pretty knowledgable answers here on UU. Sometimes I have asked questions as a novice where the answer or solution to a problem was beyond my scope (like a repair or adjustment) and I needed to defer to a professional, but sometimes with the explanation folks gave, I could do something myself, if I carefully digested what they were saying to me. This discussion seems to follow on those lines. The answer was given by folks with superior knowledge of music theory and one either makes the effort to learn more and try to understand it or just accepts it as an issue better left for the professionals.
Music theory it great and some people spend a lifetime learning and understanding it. But for me, music theory is like my approach to ukulele playing in general. I started playing the ukulele because I wanted to play songs. So I found an easy song, I think it was "You're Nothing but a Hound Dog", learned the chords, and started playing and singing it. All I needed was G,C7,and a D7. So then I found another song, and another, and another, and I added to my chord repertoire as needed. I think that after the first week, I knew enough chords to play a bunch of songs, which was probably a half dozen chords. So now I think I know twenty-five or thirty chords and I can play I don't know how many songs. But I guess the point I'm making is that I don't just learn chords. If I don't have a use for a chord, I don't need to learn it. I only learn what I need to do what I want to do, which is sing and play songs. So sometimes people start going on a big discourse on some music theory subject, and they lose me. Because I don't want to learn music theory, I want to learn enough music theory so that I can sing and play songs. If it isn't applicable to what I'm doing, I don't need to know it. Note however, I think a lot of the information in this thread has been useful, and I'm not talking about this thread specifically, but more in a general sense. But I think that often times people who are interested in music theory as an endeavor in itself, forget that many of us just want to play our ukes.
 
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Rllink, I have taken the same path as you. I just select a song I fancy, learn what I need to play and sing along and have a jolly time and naturally as time passes I get a bit better and know a bit more. Along the way a technique, theory, exercise or a bit of technical info peaks my curiousity and I read up, watch vids, practice. Sometimes one just doesn't want to go that deep into a particular area, that's why some of us are music majors and some of us are dentists.
 
Well, Rllink, I couldn't possibly agree with you more. When I started out playing, I didn't even use tabs. I just used the sheet music and learned whatever chords I needed. I mostly wanted to sing; I could play tunes on my other instruments. I already knew plenty of theory, though not much about chords. But some Uke books don't even have music, only those stupid tabs. So now I'm learning them.

I started this thread because I was curious about the 6 and minor 7th "puzzlement,"but it blossomed into the great chord debate which I am really enjoying. This thread already has more info than I needed, but some of it is very interesting and maybe useful. Someone could have said "that's just the way it is", and I could have joined the crowd. But that's not my way. I like to try to understand things and know why i'm doing them. I have trouble "Just Doing It", or joining the crowd. I'd rather just drop things that I don't understand.

Anyway, for the time being, I'll play C6, but I refuse to play Am7.
 
VegasGeorge, I'm on the very brink of understanding your comment about the Diminished 7th Chords. That's the best definition I've seen so far. The whole thing still doesn't make sense, yet it kinda does. The idea that some chords can just fit in anywhere confuses me. I guess I should just play the chords on the tabs and sing the words. It's a good thing I wasn't a music major in college; my head would have exploded. Well, anyway, thanks for the good info.
 
Bunnyf, that's the same way I approach music too. At my age, music is for fun and relaxation and not an endless grind of study and practice. I practice things when I think I need it, and I study things that interest me like clawhammer. Anyway that's my view of things.
 
I've found it best to accept these things and not to worry. I mean it doesn't matter in the great scheme of things. And an Am or C chord usually works just as well. I can't understand music theory, so X fingering = Y chord is fine by me.
 
Ya know, Pundabaya, even after all that debating, I agree with you completely. When I first started out I just wanted to sing and accompany myself on the Uke, but the musician in me keeps interfering with that plan. I keep jerking myself back to the plan and then drifting into other stuff. Now, I'm studying clawhammer and a bit of finger picking and even pressing myself to learn more chords. It's really difficult for one to be satisfied.
 
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