Are You Really In Tune?

OregonJim

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There are so many ukulele videos on YouTube, and I've noticed that the vast majority of them are out of tune. Why?

First of all, here's what not to do:

Use your clip-on tuner to tune each open string to G-C-E-A.

This guarantees that you will be playing out-of-tune!

Why? When you tune the open strings this way, you are bringing them in tune at their lowest possible tension. As you begin playing and fretting notes, the action of pressing the strings to the frets increases string tension causing the strings to play sharper.

Also, a great many people tune softly, and again, once you start playing louder, the notes go sharp (even the open ones) because you are moving the strings at a higher tension than when you were tuning.

Finally, the equal-tempered scale that we use today is a compromise. In the "old days", each particular key had its own "color". The great composers took advantage of that to bring out the colors in different keys. But today, we have a system where each key is slightly, though equally, out of tune, so that all keys "sound the same". However, strings on a fretted instrument still abide by the laws of physics, not the man-made law of equal temperament. They vibrate at the harmonics which are integral multiples of the string length. These do not coincide with the fundamental notes of the equal tempered scale. It is most noticable on the minor third and major sixth intervals, which are more than 15 cents "off" from what our ears want to hear. So, we have to use our ears to tune our instruments to the best compromise.

Here's how:

Use your tuner to tune just the open A string to the pitch "A". This is all you should ever use your tuner for (this is also why many only need a tuning fork tuned to A 440). Then use your ears to tune the rest of the instrument to itself. Fret the E string at the 5th fret and match it to the open A string. Then fret the C string at the 4th fret and match it to the E string open. Then fret the G string at the 5th fret and match it to the C string open (low-G) or 2nd fret to match the A string open (high-G). Make sure you do all of this at the same volume level that you plan to play. This will give you the best possible compromise for being in tune. Depending on your playing sytle, you may need to make small adjustments as you play.

It doesn't matter how expensive your ukulele is, or how well made, it will always be a compromise to tune it. The starting point, though, is to throw out the method of tuning all the open strings to a reference pitch, and start using your ear.
 
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Well, yes and no, IMHO. I do use the clip on tuner on the open strings to get quickly to the 'almost' pitch. Then I do what you describe to tune the instrument "to itself" as you say.
 
Well, yes and no, IMHO. I do use the clip on tuner on the open strings to get quickly to the 'almost' pitch. Then I do what you describe to tune the instrument "to itself" as you say.

I see no problem there. The key is that you don't leave it where the tuner claims it to be "in tune".
 
First of all, here's what not to do:

Use your clip-on tuner to tune each open string to G-C-E-A.

Yes. That's pretty much what everybody does. And let me tell you, those clip-on tuners are responsible for a LOT of over-correctly GCEA-tuned 'ukuleles! Seriously, I go to jams and see people taking time to tune to correct GCEA! Companies are so concerned with this these days that sometimes they even ship their ukes with a tuner (that tunes to correct GCEA, no less)! The nerve. ;)

In all seriousness, you have a point. It's important to inform people about the virtues of tuning by ear, but it's not so black and white that I'd come out and tell everybody they are wrong to use a tuner.

I played bass at a gig this morning where the drummer was banging away during soundcheck. So were all 4 guitarists (it's a "for fun" band) and the guys checking the mics. You're not going to get a good tune on bass, 'ukulele, or any instrument in that environment using your ears. You're just not. So the compromise for most people is a clip-on tuner. You trust that it's close enough and you play music. Is it the best tune you're going to get? No. But it beats trying to use your ears and tuning really wrong because you can't tell what note is coming out of your instrument/amp.

There are lots of other reasons you might need or want a tuner. They are useful.
 
In all seriousness, you have a point. It's important to inform people about the virtues of tuning by ear, but it's not so black and white that I'd come out and tell everybody they are wrong to use a tuner.

I never said that. In fact, I recommended using a tuner as a reference for the A string.

What's wrong is using the tuner to tune all the open strings and calling it good.

You're not going to get a good tune on bass, 'ukulele, or any instrument in that environment using your ears. You're just not.

I gotta disagree with you here. I've been playing in bands all my life. My bandmates and I have always used the techniques I described to tune without problems. We usually get one guy to give us an "A", and the rest of us tune by ear to him. I hear what you're saying - it is a more challenging environment - but that's not an excuse for sloppiness. Unless there's alcohol involved. :)
 
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Then fret the G string at the 5th fret and match it to the C string open.


Appreciate this explanation....but doesn't fretting the G string at the 5th to match the C (3rd string) open only apply to low g tuning? For high g tuning I was told fret G on the 2nd fret to match the open A (1st) string. Is this wrong?
 
I never said that. In fact, I recommended using a tuner as a reference for the A string.

What's wrong is using the tuner to tune all the open strings and calling it good.



I gotta disagree with you here. I've been playing in bands all my life. My bandmates and I have always used the techniques I described to tune without problems. We usually get one guy to give us an "A", and the rest of us tune by ear to him. I hear what you're saying - it is a more challenging environment - but that's not an excuse for sloppiness.

Well ,dear me ...sloppiness is it now....???

Most people who have come to the uke have done so without the benefit of any formal musical training , especially of the conservatoire method and the notion of equal temperament is what they keep when dealing with the slightly patronising and mildly chastising attitude that you appear (emphasis ..appear..) to be displaying here.

I accept that there are probably better ways to tune a ukulele or indeed any stringed instrument than a gizmo ,that hey presto does it for you and says you are in tune..but hey you know what ...Hippy Guy has it right ..most people are in this for the Fun ...

I mean, screw it lets throw the tuning forks away;) and go with all getting the same string to sound like the piano at number 32 key,whatever that may be ...oh no piano....sheesh:eek: ...I must have let it in my other trousers.......come on Mr O Jim ...lighten up just a little....

I have learned to.

The trouble I find is that mathematicians and techies like yourself (and this is an observation NOT A CRITICISM OF THOSE ) come at music from a different angle to arty farty's ..I couldn't switch a computer on without a manual to and a map to show me where the socket is....but give me a pencil and a piece of paper and I could make marks that would look like ...well ...you ....(if ,of course you were in the same room ).

But I don't like "sloppiness" or the implication and inference therein lurking.
 
the slightly patronising and mildly chastising attitude that you appear (emphasis ..appear..) to be displaying here.

If it appears that way to you, it is certainly not intentional. I was simply trying to point out that using a tuner in the manner that most newcomers seem to use it does not put your instrument in tune. Hundreds of YouTube videos bear that out.

If one is content to play out of tune, then simply ignore the advice. Some people don't have an ear that can tell the difference (nothing wrong with that - it's not a criticism). If one wants to improve, though, then read and engage in constructive dialogue. That is neither patronizing nor chastising, just simple observation and attempted help.
 
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Appreciate this explanation....but doesn't fretting the G string at the 5th to match the C (3rd string) open only apply to low g tuning? For high g tuning I was told fret G on the 2nd fret to match the open A (1st) string. Is this wrong?

No, you are absolutely correct. Thanks for pointing that out as I was thinking only in terms of low-G when I wrote that.

I've editied the original post to clarify.
 
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But I don't like "sloppiness" or the implication and inference therein lurking.

The implication and inference was already present in the post I replied to. It was not mine. Hippie Guy admitted that, in a band environment, it was too hard for him to tune the "right" way, so he fell back on the "wrong" way just to get by. Is that not sloppiness?
 
Thanks. I wrote this down. I knew how to tune my guitar without a tuner, but I have not learned how to on my uke yet. I've been using my piano to tune it...but have been only tuning the open strings.
 
Thanks. I wrote this down. I knew how to tune my guitar without a tuner, but I have not learned how to on my uke yet. I've been using my piano to tune it...but have been only tuning the open strings.

No problem. It's really just an extension of how to tune a guitar, or banjo, or mandolin, or any other fretted instrument.
 
No problem. It's really just an extension of how to tune a guitar, or banjo, or mandolin, or any other fretted instrument.

Yep. I just needed to know which frets.
 
The implication and inference was already present in the post I replied to. It was not mine. Hippie Guy admitted that, in a band environment, it was too hard for him to tune the "right" way, so he fell back on the "wrong" way just to get by. Is that not sloppiness?

No ..it is expediency...it is thinking outside the box...it is improvising....but perhaps that is a sloppy form of playing music..:p;)
 
....you are insulting ..without meaning to ...

So far, you are the only one who has said that.

You seem to be inferring that people are "sloppy" because they use electronic tuners...

I said that to ONE person, in response to ONE specific situation, in which that person admitted to being sloppy (in so many words).

You are infering, not me. To be clear, I believe MOST people who tune that way do it out of simple lack of knowledge - because they simply don't know that it's wrong.

I have bought electronic tuners from as soon as they were on the market because despite the rather jokey remark in my post ..there was not always a piano handy ....I hesitate to say that not everybody has a perfect or learned pitch ability...

Now YOU are being snide and condescending. If you had bothered to read my post insteading of picking out snippets, you would see that I RECOMMEND using a tuner - just not in the way that you want to believe is the "right" way.

I have never read in the instructions that which you are saying above.

Of course not. They are in the business of selling the thing. It's all they can do to translate a few simple sentences to English.

I am not saying you are wrong at all .To me it makes sense . I am saying that your delivery is negating the good advice that you are offering...that's what I am saying........
"If one is content to play out of tune, then simply ignore the advice. If one wants to learn more, then read and engage in constructive dialogue."
That is not only belligerently offensive and snarky (get it ...Snarky)..it is provocative and challenging ....and actually ,a bit bloody rude to be fair.

Thank you for speaking your mind, and I truly do appreciate your sentiments. But, so far, you are the only one who seems to feel that way. The above quote was not meant to be snarky, though I can, with a stretch, see that it could be seen that way. But belligerently offensive?!? Bloody rude?!? I think you are once again projecting tones and attitudes that just aren't there. And once again, you are the only one on this forum who has stated such.

I will engage in constructive dialogue with a peer or somebody I can respect who is equally able to engage in meaningful and constructive dialogue and not just talk down their nose (mixed metaphor ,but I like it) at people.:Dto take any perceived sting out..

I am not "talking down my nose" to anyone, including you. Frankly, I don't understand where the offense is coming from. If I did, perhaps I could learn to word things differently - but there seems to be a disconnect somewhere between you and I.
 
I don't think Jim is trying to talk down to folks here CeeJay. He is relatively new to UU forums and will adjust to our quirky ways. Jim you will figure out what doesn't raise the hackles here in time.

I understand what Oregon Jim is saying about equal temperament tuning. For new comers or jam sessions I find a tuner most valuable. When I leave home my instruments are in relative tune. When I arrive at a jam session my instruments are typically 50c low. I tune to "concert pitch with the tuner. Fifteen to twenty minutes later, My instruments are 50c high, (UMMV). I retune to concert pitch or perhaps a little below A 440. The jam has been going on for a half hour or so, continuously. After I have retuned for the environmental conditions I start to tune to suit my ear. I have "Just Pitch". Just pitch may be a blessing or a curse, depending how you look at it. When my ear is satisfied I just play until something sounds wrong, check the tuner and adjust to ear.

To rehash this without the environmental folderol:
1. Tune to Equal pitch, (maybe a couple cents low - the strings do sharpen as Jim suggests). Use your tuner.
2. Check the sound of the strings compared to A 440. Use your ear.
3. Adjust your tuning by ear til it suits you, (and hope the rest of the musicians don't throw rottten fruit).

I always strum or otherwise check to see if my instrument sounds in tune to ear before I pull out the tuner.

Now Jim let's talk about diatonic instruments a bit. No Capo involved. Tune it to a tuner and you should be in good shape, yes?
 
So far, you are the only one who has said that.



I said that to ONE person, in response to ONE specific situation, in which that person admitted to being sloppy (in so many words).

You are infering, not me. To be clear, I believe MOST people who tune that way do it out of simple lack of knowledge - because they simply don't know that it's wrong.

Ummmm ...I think I also said that, matey



Now YOU are being snide and condescending. If you had bothered to read my post Pot Kettle

insteading of picking out snippets, you would see that I RECOMMEND using a tuner - just not in the way that you want to believe snide:biglaugh: is the "right" way.



Of course not. They are in the business of selling the thing. It's all they can do to translate a few simple sentences to English.





Thank you for speaking your mind, and I truly do appreciate your sentiments. But, so far, you are the only one who seems to feel that way.

No , I am the only one to say so...there is a difference....constructively and well manneredly, you have to concede.


The above quote was not meant to be snarky, though I can, with a stretch, see that it could be seen that way. But belligerently offensive?!? Bloody rude?!?

Don't get too bent OOS at "Bloody" ...it's just emphasis ...I withdraw it ...it aint the same as F ...ing

I think you are once again projecting tones and attitudes that just aren't there. And once again, you are the only one on this forum who has stated such.



I am not "talking down my nose" to anyone, including you. Frankly, I don't understand where the offense is coming from. If I did, perhaps I could learn to word things differently - but there seems to be a disconnect somewhere between you and I.


READ WHAT I AM WRITING ....PLEASE...

I have not said that YOU are being offensive, patronising or any of the things that you say I am attributing to you.....

I have said that the tone of your writing gives that impression...so sorry ...it seems that you can give advice but not take it ...

Even though it was well meant ,friendly, tongue in cheek , humorous and not meant to be combatative...

Sod It. I thought Ukeing was meant to be fun ,it was back in the 60s....
 
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The uke is fretted and optimized for equal temperament, so if you fret a note and tune strings in unison, you're probably doing no better job than what a tuner would do. Any mismatch between the equal tempered intervals and the natural harmonics is a red herring because you're always tuning in unisons, not fifths or thirds. (If you did try tuning the open strings without fretting, you've be straying from equal temperament and thus throwing off that optimal compromise for playing any chord and in any key.)

The only significant difference in the two approaches is that when you tune by ear, you can hear the pulsing rate of the "beats" when two pitches are slightly off from one another. Whether this gets your pitch matching closer than the granularity your tuner will read depends on how finely you can register and react to the beats. And you still have no clue how closely two strings each tuned (closely but imperfectly) to the A string really compare to each other. I have a pretty damn sensitive ear, and yet when I tune by ear alone, the result is often worse than when using a tuner alone. Modesty aside, if you can do better, you're among the fortunate few.

Also, if you're playing with other instruments and tuning to an initial pitch that is a bit off (due to the granularity of your tuner readout), you can put the remaining strings further off in the same direction, which can't happen if you stick to the tuner, that keeps you in the neighborhood of the reference pitches everyone else is using. Using the tuner for all strings first, you end up with four pitches within the same tolerance of their targets, so when you adjust to even out the slight differences, you should end up closer to that ideal tuning.

Also, if you tune by ear to what you think sounds most harmonious for one chord (C6), you throw off all other chords, and particularly inversions (which place the same chord components on different strings, so that your slight differences from equal temperament are correspondingly inapt). You have to play a variety of chords to ensure you've hit the best compromise.

The ear also "tires": after a while of hearing slight dissonances, the brain can become accustomed to them, so that it no longer registers when pitches are in or out of tune; it's sufficient if they're close.

Furthermore, to get the best tuning by either method, you have to play each note not just once but multiple times. With the tuner method, you should pay attention to how the needle or display moves not only during the initial sound but as the note decays--the closer you are on target, the more stable the readout, and the more evenly distributed between up and down any momentary fluctuations should be. With the ear method, you have to listen each time for the beats, trusting that you can distinguish no beats (in tune) from overly rapid beats (you overshot). For such fine monitoring, I trust my eyes more than my ears.

What produces the best tuning for me is to tune the open strings with a tuner (rechecking after all strings have been initially tuned), then spot-check with a variety of major chords both in first position and, perhaps more importantly, high on the neck, paying particular attention to doubled notes (on string pairs 1 & 4 [A, F and/or D shapes], 1 & 3 [C shape] and 2 & 4 [G shape]). Slight differences in tuning pitches in open/first position are more apparent higher on the neck, though you may also be altering the pitches you play more unpredictably by your finger pressure or slight sideways bend. That said, if your chords sound good high on the neck, they're likely to sound good over the entire fretboard. If you only check first position, the upper neck is a total pot shot.

The other side to this issue is staying in tune. Whenever I have to tune down, I deliberately tune under the target pitch, then apply more tension to get the pitch back up. When you down-tune, relaxing the tension, the string doesn't necessarily adjust uniformly; and the tuning peg is left with possibly a bit of play. When you tighten the peg again, you get closer to a uniform tension with all play taken out of the peg. You also get any residual tension differences all going in the same direction, so if there is slight drift, it should at least happen in the one direction only, rather than one string increasing tension while another loosens. I suspect that neglecting to always end tuning upward helps account for why so many people play out of tune so soon after having tuned, whatever method they employ.

Another ignored factor is how a uke's tuning changes slightly as the instrument warms to the body. Warm up (literally), then retune.

The whole point is this about electronic uners.......tuners ,even ...they are bloody convenient ...
in a hot sweaty ,sadly no longer smokey thanks to the health facists (new thread please for responses to this ;)) you cannot always hear the pitch of a tuning fork , a tuner ...or even a Tuna ...and the electronic doo hickey is a godsend.....because you can see it....If nothing else...


and the highlight in red is clearly valid....and part of Jim's ..issue ,problem ..?? with people who use electronic tuners ...he has fantastic hearing ..pitch ..
 
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The whole point is this about electronic uners.......tuners ,even ...they are bloody convenient ...
in a hot sweaty ,sadly no longer smokey thanks to the health facists (new thread please for responses to this ;)) you cannot always hear the pitch of a tuning fork , a tuner ...or even a Tuna ...and the electronic doo hickey is a godsend.....because you can see it....If nothing else...


and the highlight in red is clearly valid....and part of Jim's ..issue ,problem ..?? with people who use electronic tuners ...he has fantastic hearing ..pitch ..

Ahhh, CeeJay, you completely miss the point, again. Even when other people tell you. I am too tired to respond to you further.

And ubulele, you are completely correct in your post. What you say is far more than I was willing to explain in a simple post on tuning for "newbies", though I understand and agree with you. The point of my original advice was to get people to start tuning out the beat frequencies, and that is not going to happen by tuning the open strings and forgetting about it. That is certainly not the end of the story on tuning, as you eloquently pointed out, but it is a beginning, and far better than the apparent "default" behavior of many.
 
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