rreffner
Well-known member
Looking at a common chord chart; I see Abdim, Bbdim, Ddim, and Fbdim all have the same finger placement. Other diminished chords share the same finger positions as well. Can someone explain why this is? Thanks
Diminished Chord?
- Thread starter rreffner
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Welcome to the world of movable chords! That's the exact idea - that the same chord shape can be moved, and bring a different chord in each location. The trick is that the finger forming the barre is acting as the nut, so the relative position of each finger to the "nut" stays the same.
This also works with Bb, for the same reason -- the two-finger barre still acts as the nut. Move that shape down a fret, and it's a B. One more, it's a C. Two more, and it's a D.
The experts will chime in soon enough, but as a beginner-ish sort myself (2-ish years), once I learned this, I saw that, instead of looking for "shortcuts" to avoid barre chords, that the barre chords ARE the shortcut! Once you have a handful of shapes, you can do an awful lot of things in an awful lot of places, without an awful lot of effort.
OP
OP
rreffner
Well-known member
Perhaps I have a bad chord chart, but my chart shows 1212 for Abdim, Bbdim, Ddim, and Fbdim. ThoughtsWelcome to the world of movable chords! That's the exact idea - that the same chord shape can be moved, and bring a different chord in each location. The trick is that the finger forming the barre is acting as the nut, so the relative position of each finger to the "nut" stays the same.
This also works with Bb, for the same reason -- the two-finger barre still acts as the nut. Move that shape down a fret, and it's a B. One more, it's a C. Two more, and it's a D.
The experts will chime in soon enough, but as a beginner-ish sort myself (2-ish years), once I learned this, I saw that, instead of looking for "shortcuts" to avoid barre chords, that the barre chords ARE the shortcut! Once you have a handful of shapes, you can do an awful lot of things in an awful lot of places, without an awful lot of effort.
OP
OP
rreffner
Well-known member
Oops, I gave a perfectly good answer to an entirely different question, and no answer whatsoever to the one you actually asked!
I was actually coming back to delete my answer when I saw that you'd already replied to it. D'oh!I'll step aside and let the music theory whizzes take this one.
OP
OP
rreffner
Well-known member
Nothing to worry about, Tim. I appreciate your prompt reply.Oops, I gave a perfectly good answer to an entirely different question, and no answer whatsoever to the one you actually asked!
I'll step aside and let the music theory whizzes take this one.
anthonyg
Well-known member
I'm not an expert on it, yet diminished chords are just weird.
Where as a major scale goes, tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, semitone. A diminished scale goes, tone, semitone, tone, semitone, tone, semitone, tone, semitone.
You work it all out as just triads for the I,III, and V and you get LOTS of identical chords.
OK, its dim7 chords as CPG pointed out bellow.
I only play one song with a diminished chord at the moment, and unless you want to learn Blackbird, you won't come across them much.
EDIT: CPG's answer bellow is better.
Where as a major scale goes, tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, semitone. A diminished scale goes, tone, semitone, tone, semitone, tone, semitone, tone, semitone.
You work it all out as just triads for the I,III, and V and you get LOTS of identical chords.
OK, its dim7 chords as CPG pointed out bellow.
I only play one song with a diminished chord at the moment, and unless you want to learn Blackbird, you won't come across them much.
EDIT: CPG's answer bellow is better.
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CPG
Well-known member
Its because those are diminished 7th chords (which are sometimes writen out with just the dim suffix)
And diminished 7th chords are made of 4 notes each a minor 3rd (3 semitones ) apart from the other which creates a of sequence notes that repeats itsself.
So all those chords have the same 4 notes in them and the only difference is what note you consider the root.
This also gives you the ability to play the exact same notes by moving 3 frets up the neck. So 1212 has the same notes as 4545 and as 7878 and as 10111011. Try it. Start at 1212 and move the shape up and up again 3 frets at a time. You’ll hear that it’s the same notes just getting higher in pitch on each move up.
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ripock
Well-known member
Here's my experience. I use dim chords a lot. I always use dim7 in lieu of dim's and the difference is negligible. The dim7 shape is a parallelogram and all you need to do is make sure one of the corners of the shape is the note you're looking for. That will ensure that you're playing the correct chord. That may not be the voicing you're looking for and you just have to move the shape around to another instantiation of the note until you find the right fit. I don't understand the theory of why this works; I just employ it. By the way, the same applies to augmented chords.
Mike $
Well-known member
Diminished chords are triads. Take any 7 chord and take off the root note, and you have a diminished chord. Did you guys know that there is a diminished scale? Actually there are two of them. They alternate between a half step and a whole step, and instead of 7 different notes in the scale, these have 8 different notes and then end up on the root note an octave above the one you started on. The reason there are two different scales is because one starts with a half step and the other starts with a whole step. So a scale is either whwhwhw or hwhwhwh where h is a half step and w is a whole step. The Augmented scale also exists where all the intervals are whole steps and you end up with only 6 different notes in the scale.
Some diminished chord shapes are: 4212, 3431, 2020. These are all moveable, and not diminishes 7 chords. the root note is on the 4th string(4212), the third string(3431) and the second string (2020).
Some diminished chord shapes are: 4212, 3431, 2020. These are all moveable, and not diminishes 7 chords. the root note is on the 4th string(4212), the third string(3431) and the second string (2020).
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ripock
Well-known member
I do play the two diminished scales. I also play the two augmented scales, the whole-step scale and the augmented scale. But as I said above, I don't really understand the underpinnings of the scale; I just play them.
Mike $
Well-known member
My comment wasn't directed at you, Riprock. I was typing while you posted. But if you understand how the scales are constructed - half step followed by a whole step, then, you do understand the underpinnings of the scale. There isn't much to understand. Plus when you harmonize the scale, all you get is diminished chords. Harmonizing the diminished scale to a 4 note chord gives the fully diminished 7 chord, eg. 1212, as opposed to the half diminished chord you get by harmonizing the diatonic scale to a 4 note chord.
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ripock
Well-known member
no worries. I wasn't counter-arguing, just spouting off. Just telling what I do. I do understand the surface-level stuff like how the scale progresses by WH or HW or that the scale is composed of 2 augmented chords. I also understand the theoretical basis of the altered scale. However I don't internalize any of that; I just play the scales and play progressions over it. Maybe it would be to my best interests to be more introspective. But I just play and adjust when things don't sound right.
I had to rewrite this post as I was trying to keep this simple but all I did was confuse myself.
The OP was asking about diminished chords.
(Dim7s should be another topic.)
Diminished chords are explained on page 47 of Dave Stewart's book shown in the picture.
There are 3 dim chord shapes, which can be used 4 times to complete the 12 keys. I tried it, and it works.
If you repeat the 3 chords you can hear it rise 1/2 step each time as long as you play (repeat) the same 3-chord sequence 4 times.
The 3 dim chords use every note in the scale but no note is used more than once.
The notes in dim chords are: C, C#, D, Eb, E, F, Gb, G, Ab, A, Bb, B
1st: C Eb Gb A
= Cdim, Ebdim, Gbdim, Adim
2nd: C# E G Bb
= C#dim, Edim, Gdim, Bbdim
3rd: D F Ab B
= Ddim, Fdim, Abdim, Bdim
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How can we know if the written chart means dim7, or true dim?
I usually have to tinker around until I figure out which sounds best.
The OP was asking about diminished chords.
(Dim7s should be another topic.)
Diminished chords are explained on page 47 of Dave Stewart's book shown in the picture.
There are 3 dim chord shapes, which can be used 4 times to complete the 12 keys. I tried it, and it works.
If you repeat the 3 chords you can hear it rise 1/2 step each time as long as you play (repeat) the same 3-chord sequence 4 times.
The 3 dim chords use every note in the scale but no note is used more than once.
The notes in dim chords are: C, C#, D, Eb, E, F, Gb, G, Ab, A, Bb, B
1st: C Eb Gb A
= Cdim, Ebdim, Gbdim, Adim
2nd: C# E G Bb
= C#dim, Edim, Gdim, Bbdim
3rd: D F Ab B
= Ddim, Fdim, Abdim, Bdim
---------------------
How can we know if the written chart means dim7, or true dim?
I usually have to tinker around until I figure out which sounds best.
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rreffner
Well-known member
Interesting article about diminished chords: https://ukuleleintheclassroom.com/ukuleleyes/solving-the-mystery-of-the-diminished-7-chord
ripock
Well-known member
another cool thing about the circle of fifths and the dim7: as mentioned above there are 3 positions. C uses position 1, move clockwise to G and G uses position 2, move again and D uses position 3. And so it goes around the circle: 123, 123, 123, 123. It is so gratifyingly regular and logical.
ubulele
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Returning to the original question: Diminished 7th chords are constructed like the majority of other chords, by stacking thirds. (Clearly, by "dim" the OP and/or the makers of the chord chart mean dim7.) In the case of dim7 chords, the three stacked thirds are all minor thirds (3 semitones). From the (diminished) 7th to the root above it is another interval of 3 semitones; technically, this is an augmented second interval, but it's enharmonically equivalent to a minor third—another minor third! Thus, if you start with any note in a dim7 chord and stack three minor thirds, you'll end up with the same four pitches (by name or enharmonically), forming yet another dim7 chord rooted on whichever note you started from. One of the four chord possibilities will be in root position (i.e., the root will be the lowest pitch heard in the chord); the other three will be in inversion: one with the third at the bottom, one with the fifth at the bottom, and one with the seventh at the bottom. Mystery solved.
It is also true that if you slide the (full) shape up or down three frets, you'll have the same dim7 chord, although it will be in a different inversion, which typically doesn't matter a whit. Why does this work? Because three frets is equivalent to a minor third, and if you raise each note in a dim7 by a minor third, it will just map onto the next note in the chord, round-robin. But this does not work with diminished triads, because they have big gap (of a tritone) going from the fifth back up to the root. This makes the pitch distribution pattern irregular, as it is in most other chord types. And that's why when you shift a chord to a higher position, you usually have to use a different shape.
It is far more common than not for uke chord shapes to have multiple names, depending on which note (relative to the shape) you consider to be the root. I'm not talking about moving the shape here (which changes the root but not the chord type), I'm talking about the shape positioned in exactly the same spot. In fact, the root need not be one of the notes you play (so-called "rootless" forms—the root is there conceptually, but isn't heard), which complicates figuring out all the naming possibilities. Famously, the four open strings play a C6 chord, but also an Am7 chord and a rootless Fma9 chord—as well as at least two other chords I've forgotten—they're not commonly used, particularly since you're more likely to hear the chord as one of the more familiar chord types anyway. The dim7 shape, in addition to dim7 interpretations, can also represent a rootless 7b9 chord rooted a semitone below any note in the chord shape. So, between dim7 and 7b9 interpretations, a dim7 shape may represent eight possibilities (ignoring enharmonic root names, which nearly double the count)!
Reversing this logic makes it a snap to play 7b9 chords: just play a dim7 chord one fret higher than your root. In fact, dim7 chords most commonly function as one of these 7b9 chords, regardless of which name a notator assigns it.
Takeaways:
• Shapes—even without moving them—don't have only one chord name.
• It's relatively easy to form a chord given a chord name, but to go from a shape to the proper chord name is a dicier proposition: you have to consider the context of its usage, and probably know a fair bit of theory.
It is also true that if you slide the (full) shape up or down three frets, you'll have the same dim7 chord, although it will be in a different inversion, which typically doesn't matter a whit. Why does this work? Because three frets is equivalent to a minor third, and if you raise each note in a dim7 by a minor third, it will just map onto the next note in the chord, round-robin. But this does not work with diminished triads, because they have big gap (of a tritone) going from the fifth back up to the root. This makes the pitch distribution pattern irregular, as it is in most other chord types. And that's why when you shift a chord to a higher position, you usually have to use a different shape.
It is far more common than not for uke chord shapes to have multiple names, depending on which note (relative to the shape) you consider to be the root. I'm not talking about moving the shape here (which changes the root but not the chord type), I'm talking about the shape positioned in exactly the same spot. In fact, the root need not be one of the notes you play (so-called "rootless" forms—the root is there conceptually, but isn't heard), which complicates figuring out all the naming possibilities. Famously, the four open strings play a C6 chord, but also an Am7 chord and a rootless Fma9 chord—as well as at least two other chords I've forgotten—they're not commonly used, particularly since you're more likely to hear the chord as one of the more familiar chord types anyway. The dim7 shape, in addition to dim7 interpretations, can also represent a rootless 7b9 chord rooted a semitone below any note in the chord shape. So, between dim7 and 7b9 interpretations, a dim7 shape may represent eight possibilities (ignoring enharmonic root names, which nearly double the count)!
Reversing this logic makes it a snap to play 7b9 chords: just play a dim7 chord one fret higher than your root. In fact, dim7 chords most commonly function as one of these 7b9 chords, regardless of which name a notator assigns it.
Takeaways:
• Shapes—even without moving them—don't have only one chord name.
• It's relatively easy to form a chord given a chord name, but to go from a shape to the proper chord name is a dicier proposition: you have to consider the context of its usage, and probably know a fair bit of theory.
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I read all of Ubulele's post, and even understood some of it. An important point was how a chord shape can have many names.
For example, a C9 has 5 notes: C, E, G, Bb, D. We can't play this with only 4 strings, so we have to choose which note to not play.
My chord chart says to use C, E, Bb, D for a C9. But if I go "rootless," what is left (E, G, Bb, D) and it still sounds fine as a C9.
However: E, G, Bb, D is also a complete Em7b5, and a complete Gm6. Thusly, there are multiple names for the same chord shape.
You could choose to drop a different note other than the C, and guess what? It will still pass as a C9. But there will be more chord names for the new shape created by the 4 remaining notes.
- - -
BTW, I am not a music scholar. I heavily rely on scales-chords dot com.
It's best not to think about this stuff right before going to bed... too late
For example, a C9 has 5 notes: C, E, G, Bb, D. We can't play this with only 4 strings, so we have to choose which note to not play.
My chord chart says to use C, E, Bb, D for a C9. But if I go "rootless," what is left (E, G, Bb, D) and it still sounds fine as a C9.
However: E, G, Bb, D is also a complete Em7b5, and a complete Gm6. Thusly, there are multiple names for the same chord shape.
You could choose to drop a different note other than the C, and guess what? It will still pass as a C9. But there will be more chord names for the new shape created by the 4 remaining notes.
- - -
BTW, I am not a music scholar. I heavily rely on scales-chords dot com.
It's best not to think about this stuff right before going to bed... too late
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