Imperfect, off pitch can be a good thing

[oldjazznut]

I'm partly into Big Band. Part of the sound came from each wind section having 3-5 instruments so they could play chords. Each player had his own note, so one player's part alone would sound pretty strange. Another factor in the sound was those older instruments being less perfect than today. Everyone was slightly off tune from everyone else. More so if the players had different brands of instruments with different tone qualities. That all gave the music more "character". I heard a clarinet teacher point this out, when she was talking with a music store clerk. A modern Big Band sounds lifeless and "sanitary" compared to the old ones.

 

[John Colter]

That's an interesting observation. I believe that part of the appeal of the soprano ukulele comes from the fact that it is less than absolutely perfect in intonation - particularly when using "gut" strings.

Similarly, vintage and classic cars are often said to have more character than highly refined modern products.

 

[Yukio]

Have you run across the issue of pitch inflation? It is pretty interesting. Historically, bands have had the tendency to tune ever higher to get an edge on the competition. This sometimes can get out of hand where strings start to break and singers can't hit the high notes anymore.

My former bandmate, Adrian, explained how he had to be careful when looking at old saxophones to buy. We were playing swing music from the 1920s and 30s and it would be cool to play this music on old instrument, right? Well, there were two competing common concert pitches back then, Low Pitch and High Pitch. Saxophones made as "Low Pitch" instruments (sometimes identified with the letters 'LP' stamped into the brass) correspond to A=440. If you mistakenly purchased a vintage saxophone marked "High Pitch" or with an 'H' stamped into the brass, you were SOL because such an instrument is designed to play at A=456 and would be impossible to get it in-tune to the current A=440 standard.

I don't think you have to intentionally tweak things out of tune in an effort to get your ensemble to sound pleasing. Human error and things like instrument design (e.g. the afore mentioned soprano ukulele or a c-melody saxophone) and atmospheric conditions will always keep things a little bent.

As far as modern big bands sounding sanitary and lifeless, I don't really think we can blame that on the more perfect tuning! Try this thought experiment: Imagine that you took all modern instruments and tuning methods and handed them over to a dance orchestra from the 1920's or '30s. Take you pick; Lunceford, Beiderbecke, Henderson, Ellington, Calloway, Goodman, whomever you choose. Are they going to produce boring music with these instruments? I think not.

 

[ukukeguy]

I was listening to a pianist on NPR's YouTube channel recently and to my ears it sounded fine but if you listened to some of the "experts" on there you'd imagine it was horrendously out of tune, yet there is more than one way to tune a piano. Fretted instruments also suffer from equal temperament which can never be perfect, either, check out James Taylor's tutorial on the subject on YouTube. Even two identically tuned strings can sound out of tune with each other if they are out of phase with each other, an effect which is used to good effect on 12-string guitars, in fact some players also exaggerate the "shimmer" by detuning slightly, too which is also utilised by blues guitarists.

 

[mikelz777]

In a similar vein I've heard many jazz fans criticize the playing of Wynton Marsalis. Marsalis was a trumpet prodigy and was playing professionally by the time he was 13. Those who didn't care for his playing said that he was too technically perfect, that his playing was clinical in that respect. As such, they thought he lacked feeling, emotion and soul. So in their case I'd guess that slight imperfection = perfection to their ears.

 

[EDW]

I don't think the quality and intonation of instruments is the issue in groups sounding lifeless. Even back in the day, good musicians could adjust to play their instruments in tune, no matter what the deficiencies. To my ear, the problem is more that many players focus more on the technical aspects of playing super accurately and not always the musicality. I have heard this in various styles, jazz and classical as well.

 

[MikeZito]

Wow, am I glad to hear that playing 'off pitch' can be a good thing . . . now, if only singing 'off key' can be advantageous too, I will become a HUGE star!

 

[Wiggy]

Don't get me started on drum machines... But the likes of Haggard and Sinatra had their ways of sneaking up on notes many times without actually hitting them, or so it seemed. That's music.

 

[Wiggy]

....
I don't think you have to intentionally tweak things out of tune in an effort to get your ensemble to sound pleasing. Human error and things like instrument design (e.g. the afore mentioned soprano ukulele or a c-melody saxophone) and atmospheric conditions will always keep things a little bent....

This is why I love strum-a-longs. The mixed playing and singing abilities, instruments, and all that (atmospherically) changes when everyone starts to enthusiastically dig in. In the middle we take a cool-down break, then tune up and it starts all over again. It's a wonderful thing.

 

[rainbow21]

This is why I love strum-a-longs. The mixed playing and singing abilities, instruments, and all that (atmospherically) changes when everyone starts to enthusiastically dig in. In the middle we take a cool-down break, then tune up and it starts all over again. It's a wonderful thing.

A cacaphony... helped along by when some players are playing the wrong chord, out of time and singing!

What can be better?

 

[Wiggy]

"... helped along by when some players are playing the wrong chord, out of time and singing!...
What can be better?

Hey, you're getting personal, now

That's expecting me to do all three things at once, and smiling all the while!

 

[oldjazznut]

I don't think you have to intentionally tweak things out of tune in an effort to get your ensemble to sound pleasing. Human error and things like instrument design (e.g. the afore mentioned soprano ukulele or a c-melody saxophone) and atmospheric conditions will always keep things a little bent.

As far as modern big bands sounding sanitary and lifeless, I don't really think we can blame that on the more perfect tuning! Try this thought experiment: Imagine that you took all modern instruments and tuning methods and handed them over to a dance orchestra from the 1920's or '30s. Take you pick; Lunceford, Beiderbecke, Henderson, Ellington, Calloway, Goodman, whomever you choose. Are they going to produce boring music with these instruments? I think not.

The C-Melody in less skilled hands has been compared to a cow mooing. Frank Trumbauer was the only one that seemed to master it in spite of it's shortcomings. The soprano sax has similar issues, but that didn't bother Sydney Bechet. Kenny G was awful on it, IMHO. ...

Beiderbecke was totally self-taught and played the cornet "wrong". That gave him a unique sound that other players couldn't duplicate. In his Bix biography, Richard Sudhalter did a short chapter attempting to explain it.

 

[kkimura]

Yeah this is one of my pet peeves, that some ukulele groups strive for absolute perfection. Everyone is tuned to the perfect pitch. All playing the same strum in lock step. Chord changes at exact intervals and fixed tempo. So mechanical. So boring.
I guess I’m a music performance anarchist.