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ploverwing

Duck Wrangler and Rabbit Herder
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A very good point was made in another for sale thread - we have a lot to say about running the Marketplace, and it really doesn't belong in someone's For Sale post. So I'm kicking this off here for these kinds of discussions, and I'll move those couple of posts from that thread to this one.
 
From @Teddy:

I think we as a community probably need to establish some better rules on sale threads.

First one being that one thread per item should exist at any given time. If you list an item, don't sell it, close the thread and come back several months later then by all means, make a new one. But this item is on its second thread (made while the first was still active) which only serves to hide how long its been listed for and/or any previous discussion of the item.

Second would be commentary on price. Most forums have rules barring substantive discussion of prices. "Hey thats a great price, glws" = no problem. "Wow that's a great deal, Teddy is so amazing and special, gee whiz hes the hottest thing since sliced bread" = should be tolerated and frankly, stated more often. But if the price sucks just move on. No one says anything and the thread just dies on its own besides an occasional bump from the seller. We can all look at a for sale thread, realize it's a bad value/offer and just move on with our internet ukulele lives. You want to take a shot at making an offer, do it in PM as seems to be tradition, but this rule would also prevent the seller from complaining publicly about offers they receive. We've all received crap offers and I'm sure someone thinks I've delivered one myself at some point, but keep it private. It has no place or value in the thread itself.

Third (not related to this thread but I'm on my soapbox so here I go) a for sale thread should be required to have a price listed. I don't think a value needs to be assigned on a "for trade" thread but if you're selling a ukulele give the price. I honestly can't believe this isn't a requirement.

I think a lot of these are no brainer big kid rules we all follow for the most part but it's seems like some structure may be helpful to the community at this time.

End rant.
 
Third (not related to this thread but I'm on my soapbox so here I go) a for sale thread should be required to have a price listed. I don't think a value needs to be assigned on a "for trade" thread but if you're selling a ukulele give the price. I honestly can't believe this isn't a requirement.

Absolutely agree! If there's not a fixed price, it's not "for sale" in the only way our Marketplace is designed to function.


Most forums have rules barring substantive discussion of prices.

We need that too. The price is the seller's prerogative, and if the price isn't to your liking, then the thread isn't for you. Fortunately, we have others! 🤣

Honestly, I'd rather not have people sending sellers PMs about the price either. To me, this really needs to be a firm line. Sellers will figure out soon enough if the price is out of line by the lack of offers.

Maybe if the seller is open to PM offers they can say so, but otherwise, I'd prefer to put the kibosh on it. That's just me, and if other folks would prefer to keep the PM option as okay under the rules, I'll defer to you folks who are doing the actual selling and buying. 🙂

End rant.

Nothing that you said feels ranty to me, but I share your frustration! The somewhat chaotic, occasionally bruising, discourse in the Marketplace has been part of its charm. More a feature than a bug, if you will. But lately, it feels like some of it is moving well outside the bounds of community and civility.

It's like, "We don't need to be polite to each other because we know each other so well", which I hear all the time in other contexts, and always feels backwards to me. I think our relationships with other require that we INCREASE the respect in our interactions, rather than waive the need for basic consideration.

We not only CAN do better, but for most of our lives in the forum in general and the Marketplace in particular, we HAVE done better. I hope that @ploverwing's Code of Conduct post and this thread can help serve as a reset.

I'm trying to keep ranty language out of my post too, but I really am feeling the frustration too! 🙂
 
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From @Teddy:

I think we as a community probably need to establish some better rules on sale threads.

First one being that one thread per item should exist at any given time. If you list an item, don't sell it, close the thread and come back several months later then by all means, make a new one. But this item is on its second thread (made while the first was still active) which only serves to hide how long its been listed for and/or any previous discussion of the item.

Second would be commentary on price. Most forums have rules barring substantive discussion of prices. "Hey thats a great price, glws" = no problem. "Wow that's a great deal, Teddy is so amazing and special, gee whiz hes the hottest thing since sliced bread" = should be tolerated and frankly, stated more often. But if the price sucks just move on. No one says anything and the thread just dies on its own besides an occasional bump from the seller. We can all look at a for sale thread, realize it's a bad value/offer and just move on with our internet ukulele lives. You want to take a shot at making an offer, do it in PM as seems to be tradition, but this rule would also prevent the seller from complaining publicly about offers they receive. We've all received crap offers and I'm sure someone thinks I've delivered one myself at some point, but keep it private. It has no place or value in the thread itself.

Third (not related to this thread but I'm on my soapbox so here I go) a for sale thread should be required to have a price listed. I don't think a value needs to be assigned on a "for trade" thread but if you're selling a ukulele give the price. I honestly can't believe this isn't a requirement.

I think a lot of these are no brainer big kid rules we all follow for the most part but it's seems like some structure may be helpful to the community at this time.

End rant.
Thank you, and you too, Tim. UU is the BEST music maker's forum, and it keeps getting better.
 
Good thread to get going...

I like that a price is now required. Takes away potential shenanigans.

I disagree that putting the kibosh on PMs should be enacted. Once someone is interested, PM is the best way to proceed. No one needs to know that someone is asking if they would take $50 less or pay shipping. Offers and counteroffers and even acceptances and rejections are usually handled privately between the interested parties. I have sold a few here and there was always an offer less than what was listed, some with back and forth, and agreement being reached.

Along this line, sometimes pricing info is done well with a PM. I recently PM'd a member on a MB (not this current one, lol) letting him know what I paid, what a friend paid, what UFriend was charging and a bit more to help him determine his fair asking price. No one is really better served by posting this info publicly, especially since my purchase would be the lowest price since it was done through Chuck's FB listing (and might become "ammo" for criticism or bargaining).

Bumping should be allowed with a minimum elapsed time (monthly or quarterly?). It moves it above all those that sold and reminds people of the availability. When I listed my last one, it perhaps fell to page six or so after about two months.

Finally, add a scoreboard whereby we get points for being first to report the lack of a name card/hostage photo.
 
Good thread to get going...

I like that a price is now required. Takes away potential shenanigans.

I disagree that putting the kibosh on PMs should be enacted. Once someone is interested, PM is the best way to proceed. No one needs to know that someone is asking if they would take $50 less or pay shipping. Offers and counteroffers and even acceptances and rejections are usually handled privately between the interested parties. I have sold a few here and there was always an offer less than what was listed, some with back and forth, and agreement being reached.

Along this line, sometimes pricing info is done well with a PM. I recently PM'd a member on a MB (not this current one, lol) letting him know what I paid, what a friend paid, what UFriend was charging and a bit more to help him determine his fair asking price. No one is really better served by posting this info publicly, especially since my purchase would be the lowest price since it was done through Chuck's FB listing.

Bumping should be allowed with a minimum elapsed time (monthly or quarterly?). It moves it above all those that sold and reminds people of the availability. When I listed my last one, it perhaps fell to page six or so after about two months.

Finally, add a scoreboard whereby we get points for being first to report the lack of a name card/hostage photo.
I've noticed that a BUMP usually includes a price drop....but not always.
 
I've noticed that a BUMP usually includes a price drop....but not always.
I agree and think that's a fair use personally. I could also see if someone posted new pictures or added a new video with sound sample etc.

Just some context I think goes a long way rather than just trying to push the post to the top of the board.

Plus we in the community seem to do a good job of commenting on for sale posts when we've had good experiences with the seller and such. Kind of serves the same purpose but beyond just a "to the top" post.
 
Is it really that big a deal if a prospective seller Bumps? It will sell or it won’t. I personally couldn’t care less if a seller wants to bump. I think an item is probably more likely to sell if the initial description and accompanying pictures are as thorough as possible. But if it doesn’t sell and the seller wishes to bump, why is it such a an annoyance to some folk? Just ignore it. I highly recommend this approach. And you can have that advice nugget for free. No bumps involved ;)
 
I would suggest that if someone were posting multiple Ukes for sale and/or multiple WTB postings that they be combined into one.
 
I would suggest that if someone were posting multiple Ukes for sale and/or multiple WTB postings that they be combined into one.
I actually prefer separate listings so each transaction has its own thread.

Earlier multiples were more confusing, especially when one sold and the other(s) remained.

Three ukulele threads by one seller is easier to navigate than one seller thread listing three ukuleles.
 
I disagree that putting the kibosh on PMs should be enacted.

I am entirely persuaded by your post. Consider my suggestion withdrawn!

I would suggest that if someone were posting multiple Ukes for sale and/or multiple WTB postings that they be combined into one.

We've tried this, and it absolutely doesn't work. That's another thing that if somebody wants to PM the seller and ask for a break if they buy all three or whatever, they can do that....but otherwise, the chaos has proved to be far more than is useful in a tradeoff for a few fewer posts. Better to have more posts so that people can follow the conversation about the specific instrument they're interested in.

Is it really that big a deal if a prospective seller Bumps?

Big deal? No. Spam? I'd argue yes, and that we need less of it, please. :)

If your ukulele isn't selling, I can all but guarantee that the reason ISN'T that someone missed your listing. Most of us come into the site through the New Posts door, and the Marketplace is our most subscribed-to forum. People who regularly participate in the Marketplace are mostly seeing everything.

Whereas, "I have new pictures", or "here's a new sound sample", or "I'll pay postage" or some other change in the listing beyond the obvious price drop (which should also be noted by editing the thread to change the prefix to 'Price Drop') -- those are all adding value to the listing, and to the forum as a whole.

This is also an arcane sysadmin nerd thing, but I can say categorically that Google HATES seeing a bunch of single word or super short posts ("Sunday bump!" or whatever) in forums. They see posts like this as "noise" if you will, rather than "signal", and they downgrade the ranking of forums because of it. This affects our revenue, as well as our ability to attract new members, making it fundamentally harder to keep going.

I never like to over-emphasize that point, because our concerns in running the forum are admittedly sometimes different than how members are used to interacting, but in this context, it's worth bringing up. Bump posts are bad practice from an admin's perspective, and many forums flat out forbid it. The last three forums I've worked with all certainly did. I'm not quite ready to go there yet, but I'm getting close.

If somebody wants to draw attention to their listing, give us a reason to look again.

Plus we in the community seem to do a good job of commenting on for sale posts when we've had good experiences with the seller and such. Kind of serves the same purpose but beyond just a "to the top" post.

Exactly. :) Give us something new to talk about, and we'll take care of the rest.

Tim
Mod
 
Thank you, and you too, Tim. UU is the BEST music maker's forum, and it keeps getting better.
Dittos. UU is really kind of a "safe space" for me online. We can chit chat about ukes and enjoy one another's company. We may not always agree but that's what's civil discourse is about. It's a good place to be.
 
I'm conflicted about the "Bump" issue and see both sides. It does force other listings to drop "down the line" especially if nothing new is added. But personally, there has been a time or two where a bump reminded me I had some interest in that uke when it 1st posted. And maybe a uke I had listed just sold and those funds are burning a hole in my pocket... that bump might get snagged! My memory isn't what it used to be, "out of site out of mind" is me to a T! Finally, if it's a bump for a uke I have no interest in, not rereading it is easy for me. ;)

That said, I love this site, have bought and sold several ukes here, for the most part without a hitch. I PM sellers when I'm interested and like taking the "details of the sale" offline and just between us. It's just nice dealing with other enthusiasts, sharing both "ukes for sale" and "opinions" in a pretty safe environment. My thanks to the Administrators who help make that happen!

Now I feel like I need to look through my ukes again and see who's not getting "the love"...
 
But personally, there has been a time or two where a bump reminded me I had some interest in that uke when it 1st posted
This has happened to me many times! My practice is to read “New posts,” not individual forums like Marketplace. So I like reminders that something’s for sale, and enjoy looking at the resulting comments and questions.

Edit: Besides, I might have more available funds when I see that “bump.”
 
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Lots of good stuff being determined here! I 100% agree with all of the following:
  • Price should be clearly posted- agreed!
  • PMs should be allowed- agreed!
  • Commentary on price should be minimal (and positive)- agreed!
  • Separate listings work far better than combined listings- agreed!
  • We should be nice (and have fun)- agreed!
As someone who has bought and sold many ukes in this forum- I too am not crazy about the notion of banning bumps. Yes, they shouldn't be overused, but like many phenomena, listings can come in waves (sometimes deluges), and a post can find itself on page 2 or 3 pretty quickly, and be missed by anyone who doesn't check the forum obsessively.

If I have a uke for sale that is on page 2 or 3 and I make amendments (price drop, added photos, measurements, etc.) only to the original post, it doesn't move, and no one sees it. In these cases,I will bump the thread just to bring attention to the new info. I will admit I have, on occasion, bumped a thread just to revive it, and it has resulted in the right person seeing it and making a purchase. I think the annoyance of people potentially overusing bumps is outweighed by the loss of marketplace functionality if they're banned.

That's what I think anyway! 8^)
Thanks for this thread and the chance to weigh in!
 
As someone who has bought and sold many ukes in this forum- I too am not crazy about the notion of banning bumps. Yes, they shouldn't be overused, but like many phenomena, listings can come in waves (sometimes deluges), and a post can find itself on page 2 or 3 pretty quickly, and be missed by anyone who doesn't check the forum obsessively.
Well, we definitely want to respect experience here. You've definitely had a lot of flow through on the Marketplace, so if your opinion on bumps is that allowing them is more good than annoying, I'm willing to be convinced.

Personally, I'm on board with Tim on this: if there's no substantive content in the bump (e.g. just saying "b" or "bump"), that's really irritating to me plus has negative impact on Google-related issues with the forum. BUT I also agree that adding some kind of commentary that results in a bump is totally fine, and certainly bumping periodically (e.g. it's been dormant for a couple of weeks) is fine too - but bumping daily or multiple times a week, that bothers me. I spend a lot of time looking at the forum from the "new posts" filter, and just having a bump post keeping the item on my feed is so meh.

OK, enough grumping. It's not really that big a deal (seriously, there are a lot of other things that I can waste my energy on). I can learn to let it go, I just needed to vent ;)
 
I seem to be hearing a lot of posts about the need to optimize the forum for “Google”. I assume this is some kind of search engine optimization issue.
This is fine with me as long as it’s secondary to optimizing the forum for our members.
 
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