Admin Marketplace Topic Discussions

[ploverwing]

Why do we need to keep Google happy? Bottom line, as always, is the bottom line. We risk losing the site:

Low-quality bumps are a potential threat to our ability to keep operating.

So we on the forum can keep on keepin' on as we mostly have. Tim is just warning us that we may need to implement something along the lines of a no-bump rule or a minimum character limit to post requirement, and explaining why that may come into play.

Nothing wrong with this thread derailing. That's the purpose of this thread: to keep sales posts from derailing

 

[Nickie]

I literally HATE selling anything. I gave my old car to the radio station, rather than go through the agony....
I'm 99% sure I won't ever sell another uke here, because freight costs....
But, when I did do a bump, I often included another pic or two of the ukulele. or maybe some history about how much fun it was to play in some show....

 

[kkimura]

Now that I've had my coffee (and lunch) I can mellow up and say that not all people attracted to us by Google's search engine are going to be a negative impact on the forum. That said, if a few "bumps" will discourage the scammer bots, I'm okay with using "bumps" when and wherever I can.

 

[Eggs_n_Ham]

I do what I can to keep Google out of our business, but if you're online, you're in the Google business. Google is the source of 99% of our new traffic, and 100% of our new members.

Please note: the rest of this isn't aimed at you or anyone else. This is sheer nerdery, to put in context the back-end stuff I'm wrestling with.



We had in fact fallen out of their good graces for a while, and went long stretches of time with falling traffic and virtually no new members. I've been doing everything I can to reverse that trend, and I've been making progress. We've set all-time records for new arrivals through search results in each of the past two months, and I feel like it's getting better....

....but there's only so much I can do if we keep making the kinds of posts that they have warned us in very, very plain language that they will penalize us for.

I'll tell you what they hate about posts that just say "bump" or little else. That's not a conversation. It's barely language at all. It's not even aimed at readers. It's just jostling the machine, and man, they hate that more than anything. It's worse than spam in their eyes, and if they see more of it than pleases them, they just won't send people here anymore.

As I mentioned before, I've been working in forums since 1988, and the last three I worked for flat out banned low-quality bumps, because they weren't willing to bear the impact of Google's penalties to their businesses. Google's bigger than all of us, and they win these fights, every time. I'm saying this as calmly as I can, but also as seriously as I can. Low-quality bumps are a potential threat to our ability to keep operating.

I really hope that this isn't sounding scoldy. I swear I don't mean it to. Wrestling with Google has been one of my least favorite parts of working on the web for the last decade or so. This is especially depressing because in their early days, they were one of the best parts about working on the web. I shouldn't have to think about them, but I don't have the luxury of not.

For now I'll keep doing what I can to keep things moving in the right direction, but if things take a turn, then I'll need to be more proactive about it. All I'm asking in return is to, pretty please, at least consider giving us something. A photo. A sound sample. A story. If you don't have any of those (and we certainly don't always), at least make your bump a couple of sentences rather than a couple of words.

We love these instruments, and we mostly at least like each other LOL so maybe think about what you'd be saying to someone face to face, or to a group of us in person to reopen a conversation. After all, we're here as part of a community. Better posts build communities better than machine-jostling does. In fact, machine-jostling literally undermines them. We can bear some of it because we have so many high-quality posts across the site, but there is definitely a line, and Google will let us know when we've crossed it. I'd appreciate your help staying out of the penalty box.

So I'm not making "no low-quality bumps" a rule yet, but I'm also not ruling out a rule in the future.



THIS, I ADORE. I sometimes look at ukes that I think should be getting more action, and will make a comment to supply a bump myself. That's what I'm talking about. Fostering communication, community, communion, all that good stuff. If we make that our standard for every post, things keep moving in the right direction.

Here's to at least not TALKING about Google for a while, even if I can never go more than an hour or two without thinking about them, which pleases me none at all.

Yr pal,
Tim
Mod

PS. I'm not much of a buyer or seller, and I find that too much time in the marketplace is more than my UAS can handle. I really don't plan to say anything else about this, and agree that that was never the intent of this thread. It's a non-trivial issue, I swear, but I also swear that I'm not going to say anything else about it. LOL

Thank you for TILing us about google search algos and seo requirements. Marketplace is bad for the old uas...

 

[Tin Ear]

Now that I've had my coffee (and lunch) I can mellow up and say that not all people attracted to us by Google's search engine are going to be a negative impact on the forum. That said, if a few "bumps" will discourage the scammer bots, I'm okay with using "bumps" when and wherever I can.

I have had coffee and breakfast this morning and am mellow now too. I think I now understand the google whoopdeedoo stuff - type a couple lines and you are good.... no one word bumps.

I don't think we have had that many one or two word bumps here in the marketplace . Most "bumps" if you will have been revisions in prices, further descriptions, etc or somebody saying they have had great experience with other members previously selling or rehoming ukes. Are there that many bumps that are just one or two syllable blips ? I dunno. I didn't think this was a problem of voluminous proportion.

for Tim for educating us.

and for Ploverwing for assistance with wrangling and herding here.

Did not know this was a potential problem lurking in the interweb weeds.

( and for me for catching CFS ( Charter Fishing Syndrome and displacing incidents of UAS ) another topic, but I had to do that ... LOL


and a for google

 

[kkimura]

Why do we need to keep Google happy? Bottom line, as always, is the bottom line. We risk losing the site:

First let me apologize for my ignorance. I don’t understand how Google affects the site’s bottom line. Does increasing traffic equate to increasing revenue for a non-commercial site?
Or, is UU making money from visitors? And is there a “break even” point such that if revenues fall below it the site ceases to be self sustaining?
I have helped manage for profit organizations where the focus was to improve shareholder value, cash flow and volume. In that environment it’s sometimes difficult to maintain perceived quality and service. I hope we’re not going down that road.

 

[ploverwing]

First let me apologize for my ignorance. I don’t understand how Google affects the site’s bottom line. Does increasing traffic equate to increasing revenue for a non-commercial site?
Or, is UU making money from visitors? And is there a “break even” point such that if revenues fall below it the site ceases to be self sustaining?
I have helped manage for profit organizations where the focus was to improve shareholder value, cash flow and volume. In that environment it’s sometimes difficult to maintain perceived quality and service. I hope we’re not going down that road.

No problem - it's ok to ask!

I have to defer to @TimWilson 's expertise on this one, though. I know he's discussed the why's and wherefore's earlier in this thread and in other threads, so I'll see if I can find those and link here.

 

[ZaBeth]

I too am not crazy about the notion of banning bumps. Yes, they shouldn't be overused, but like many phenomena, listings can come in waves (sometimes deluges), and a post can find itself on page 2 or 3 pretty quickly, and be missed by anyone who doesn't check the forum obsessively.

I agree with this. Also, the "bumps" can sometimes tell me something about the seller (and that something isn't always favorable)

(I'm playing catchup on reading this thread, so apologies if any replies I make seem off.)

 

[Orra]

This is all very interesting to me. I have been a reader and procurer of much helpful info as a builder for many years here, and have finally registered to potentially sell some instruments in the future and also available tonewoods so wanted to come and read up on the rules etc, and where to/not to post.
This is a timely bit of information to help me avoid annoying people.
I had no idea G**gle could be quite so militant and all powerful.

 

[kkimura]

Here I sit sipping my coffee totally immersed in my ignorance. I still don't understand our "life or death" relationship with Google. Do we cease to exist if Google decides to stop including us in their Internet search results? There are other search engines and the URL name servers don't rely on search engines to do their job.
If we adhere to Google's rules it is because we choose to do so. It is not because we have no other choice but to do so or die.

 

[Nickie]

Here I sit sipping my coffee totally immersed in my ignorance. I still don't understand our "life or death" relationship with Google. Do we cease to exist if Google decides to stop including us in their Internet search results? There are other search engines and the URL name servers don't rely on search engines to do their job.
If we adhere to Google's rules it is because we choose to do so. It is not because we have no other choice but to do so or die.

I don't use Google to search any more. I use DuckDuckGo. It doens't follow around.

 

[kkimura]

I don't use Google to search any more. I use DuckDuckGo. It doens't follow around.

Me too!

 

[uke_up_your_mind]

One question: One marketplace rule is to have at least 10 posts. Does this mean started threads? Or does this mean 10 messages / replies / etc. within existing threads?
I would like to sell a uke but I'm reluctant to act against the common understanding of the rules of this forum.

Mahalo,
Jan

 

[rainbow21]

One question: One marketplace rule is to have at least 10 posts. Does this mean started threads? Or does this mean 10 messages / replies / etc. within existing threads?
I would like to sell a uke but I'm reluctant to act against the common understanding of the rules of this forum.

Mahalo,
Jan

You are fine. It shows that you have 13 messages.

 

[uke_up_your_mind]

=) Thank you for your fast reply! (=

 

[Stoneyrun]

A very good point was made in another for sale thread - we have a lot to say about running the Marketplace, and it really doesn't belong in someone's For Sale post. So I'm kicking this off here for these kinds of discussions, and I'll move those couple of posts from that thread to this one.

I'd appreciate a price requirement in the thread title as opposed to the body of the message. I'd like to see the asking price at a glance before my slow internet has to load 11 beautiful photos of another uke I can't afford.

 

[Ernie]

I'd appreciate a price requirement in the thread title as opposed to the body of the message. I'd like to see the asking price at a glance before my slow internet has to load 11 beautiful photos of another uke I can't afford.

Isn't this already a requirement? When I start to list a uke for sale, one of the required fields is price.

 

[ploverwing]

I'd appreciate a price requirement in the thread title as opposed to the body of the message. I'd like to see the asking price at a glance before my slow internet has to load 11 beautiful photos of another uke I can't afford.

Isn't this already a requirement? When I start to list a uke for sale, one of the required fields is price.

Ernie you are correct, but what Stoneyrun is requesting is that people place the price in the title of their post, in addition to that "Price" field that is definitely a requirement.

Stoneyrun it wouldn't be easily enforceable (like the price field, which we can specifically require in that if it's blank, the post won't post), and would take more work (i.e. people would have to report it and admins would have to ask for it, users would have to remember to manually update the title when they update the price field, etc.). But we can certainly request that posters consider placing the price in their title as they used to do. @TimWilson what do you think?

 

[TimWilson]

Stoneyrun it wouldn't be easily enforceable (like the price field, which we can specifically require in that if it's blank, the post won't post), and would take more work (i.e. people would have to report it and admins would have to ask for it, users would have to remember to manually update the title when they update the price field, etc.). But we can certainly request that posters consider placing the price in their title as they used to do. @TimWilson what do you think?

Me, I'm somewhat disinclined to require the price in the subject line, because the price can change. In some cases, several times.

I also think that in most cases, the name of the ukulele tells you something about the price before you click. That said, I've recently been pleasantly surprised by how much lower asking prices are than what I'd expect.

More important, I feel like LOOKING at the ukes can help justify the price, especially for more expensive instruments. I'd hate for somebody to miss out on an opportunity to step up to the instrument of their dreams just because their first inclination was to exclude it based on price alone.

That's me, though, and I may not be the best one to ask. I'm never going to be doing much Marketplacing myself. I don't have many ukes, and while I do plan to sell one soon, I don't have plans to buy any. So I'll always be happy to defer to the many folks here who DO buy and sell through the Marketplace.

We've heard from a buyer, and I can definitely see the appeal...but I'd like to hear from sellers. It seems to ME that it would be more trouble than it's worth, and it would definitely be more work for us as mods (which I'm not thrilled by, but whatever )...but if sellers are cool with it, then I don't see why we can't at least recommend it.

 

[Ukecaster]

No need for price in title, IMO.