Myth, magic, truth...ukulele "opening up"

[kkimura]

I bought an old Decca soprano that opened up. Had to pay to have it glued back together.
It does sound good though.

 

[kerneltime]

I don't know about the whole opening up thing (I'm skeptical) but I know that humidity will affect the sound. I once owned a uke that didn't seem to like humid environments. When it was stored in a hard case where the relative humidity was 50-60% it tended to sound a little dull and muddy. When the relative humidity in the case was about 40-47% it tended to sound more bright and crisp. I discovered it kind of unintentionally. There were times when I would play it and the sound wasn't cutting it for me so my thoughts moved to selling it rather than keeping it. Then there were times that it sounded great and I asked myself why I even entertained the thought of selling it. After a particularly dry and cold winter my concern for my solid wood ukes led me to buying small hygrometers to put in the cases and that is how I discovered this particular uke was sensitive to humidity.

I have noticed this too and string tension. Basically to have an instrument sound the best, right weather and right strings makes all the difference

 

[kerneltime]

I bought an old Decca soprano that opened up. Had to pay to have it glued back together.
It does sound good though.

Oddly enough a Martin concert I used to own sounded better after a crack.

 

[kissing]

You will never get an acceptable double blind study that will convince you. This is not something that will be funded nor would it have a conclusive result. No proof does not mean it does not happen.

But I can accept anecdotal evidence from those that I respect. A luthier or artist who has mastered his craft can compare ones made at different times and believe if they have changed or not. A performer can get a new ukulele and believe they have changed or not after a few months. So if Chuck Moore and John Kinnard say they should open up, I trust them.

And I have an ukulele that I believe has opened up. So I am convinced that some can open up. I don’t need a scientific study to convince me further.

That's where you and I differ.
I think accepting anecdotal evidence, or "old wives tales" so to speak is regressive, misleading and in some contexts harmful.
We didn't come from being a society where people anecdotally believed mental illness was the doing of evil spirits to one of science and technological advancement from just accepting anecdotes.

The few tests that have been done on the instruments opening up have all been inconclusive.
Sure, no proof does not mean it does not happen but in order to say that it needs to be at least backed up by some solid theoretical reasoning.

How does a solid lifeless piece of wood know to become "better" at being a musical instrument from being used as one?
If the vibrations caused by playing are powerful enough to physically re-align the wood to make it a better instrument; wouldn't it be much more likely that you'll destroy the instrument or make it sound worse over time?

Is it playing itself that makes the change, or age?

Earlier in the topic, I made a few theoretical explanations on why this change is perceived.

1. The Placebo Effect is very real; so much so that it is precisely the reason clinical studies need to be randomized and double blinded.
If you believe that instruments magically improve over time, it probably will in your mind.

2. You grow attached to the instrument and subconsciously become better at bringing out its best tone and nuance.

3. Instruments may have a bit of a settling in period.
Fresh from the factory, the wood has a bit more drying and moving to do as it acclimatizes to its new environment and on-going tension of being kept in tune. However, the perceived change in tone from this may have more to do with the neck's movement affecting the action and breaking angles; not the top of the wood changing to vibrate better.

4. Strings stretch and change throughout its lifetime and behaves differently depending on environmental factors; so it's hard to pin down whether the change is simply the strings responding to the environment.

5. You subconsciously become a better player over time.

However, beyond these things I really cannot think of any theoretical plausible explanations for instrument tonality change over time.
It seems like an old wives tale to me, like how some people still think you catch a cold due to exposure to temperature (heavily backed up by anecdotal evidence).

 

[kissing]

It should be easy to record volume and frequency spectrum and then vibrate the instrument with one of those vibrators for some months and measure those specs again.
There is nothing magical about it. It's just amplitude and frequency and it can be measured.

It would be difficult to put in all the controls.

1. Strings are in a constant state of change from first installation to when you swap them.
2. Temperature and humidity affect how your strings sound and behave.
3. The ukulele/guitar neck is also in a constant state of change and tension depending on temperature and humidity.
4. People cannot play the same piece of music completely the same into a microphone or detector. The player may even make some subconscious changes to their technique over time as they become familiar with an instrument's characteristics.
5. Depends on what are you testing. Are you testing whether one instrument changes over time; or whether a heavily used instrument changes more vs an unused instrument? Also hard to test due to all the extraneous variables mentioned above and the fact that no 2 instruments are exact copies of each other even if it's the same model, make and materials.

You'll also need to repeat the exact same test for thousands or millions of ukuleles to get a sample big enough to have any significance.

 

[rainbow21]

That's where you and I differ.
I think accepting anecdotal evidence, or "old wives tales" so to speak is regressive, misleading and in some contexts harmful.
We didn't come from being a society where people anecdotally believed mental illness was the doing of evil spirits to one of science and technological advancement from just accepting anecdotes.

The few tests that have been done on the instruments opening up have all been inconclusive.
Sure, no proof does not mean it does not happen but in order to say that it needs to be at least backed up by some solid theoretical reasoning.

How does a solid lifeless piece of wood know to become "better" at being a musical instrument from being used as one?
If the vibrations caused by playing are powerful enough to physically re-align the wood to make it a better instrument; wouldn't it be much more likely that you'll destroy the instrument or make it sound worse over time?

Is it playing itself that makes the change, or age?

5. You subconsciously become a better player over time.

However, beyond these things I really cannot think of any theoretical plausible explanations for instrument tonality change over time.
It seems like an old wives tale to me, like how some people still think you catch a cold due to exposure to temperature (heavily backed up by anecdotal evidence).

We do differ.

Assume it occurs: There is still no scientific study that can be designed to prove this currently.

There are explanations for opening up, but not if one starts from the question, "How does a solid lifeless piece of wood know to become "better" at...". Your question precludes any scientific examination of the question.

I did not subconsciously become a better player when I noticed that the sound of my custom ukulele changed since it was very specific to a few frets on the A string.

Wives tales are not to be pushed aside only because you do not believe in them without scientific proof. I believe that environmental temperature can effect whether you catch a cold. Getting chilled lowers one's immunity, making it more difficult for the body to fight off the virus. The number of respiratory illnesses increases with excessive exposure to low temperatures. This increase occurs both anecdotally and scientifically, and whether it is backed by solid theoretical reasoning (it occurred even before van Leeuwenhoek).

 

[Oldscruggsfan]

Yes, in my experience a new Uke usually does "open up" after some time and some playing. I'm not a physicist, but I did stay at a Motel 6 once or twice. I know that wood is comprised of molecules and is fibrous. My best guess is that after experiencing the subtle vibration of resonance, the molecules start to align along the longitudinal axis of the fibers. This would allow the atomic subs to sortie in the direction of the propagating waves. That, in turn, would facilitate fractal interference, reducing enharmonic distortions, and promote sympathetic confluence in the body. I believe that explains it.

Creeping incremental-ism at its finest! Bravo, VG! Leave the light on for us. And, back to the OP, Yowling Tom isn't opening up but my fingers and brain certainly are, which has the same end result, thus aren't we just debating semantics? [Not sayin' there's anything wrong with that]

 

[spongeuke]

I seem to recall that an instrument maker would attach a custom made speaker coil to the bridge and play music on it for ?? before it left the shop. I tend not to remember dreams, well maybe day dreams.

 

[70sSanO]

While there is no quantifiable answer, I have found that over time a guitar, and a ukulele, that is not over built will experience distortion in the soundboard.

Constant string pressure on braces seem to result in a slight bellying behind the bridge and slight dishing in front of the bridge. As a ukulele goes through varying temperature and humidity environments, the soundboard and braces seem to adopt this shape and do not return to their pre-strung shape when the strings are removed.

I am not a luthier, but I imagine there is a fine line between over and under building. With that in mind where does the needle point between sound and longevity?

John

 

[richntacoma]

Yuck. Some of the comments to others are about as discounting and nasty as I have seen on this site. Sometimes, it is better to be nice than have to be right.

 

[kissing]

We do differ.

Assume it occurs: There is still no scientific study that can be designed to prove this currently.

There are explanations for opening up, but not if one starts from the question, "How does a solid lifeless piece of wood know to become "better" at...". Your question precludes any scientific examination of the question.

I did not subconsciously become a better player when I noticed that the sound of my custom ukulele changed since it was very specific to a few frets on the A string.

Wives tales are not to be pushed aside only because you do not believe in them without scientific proof. I believe that environmental temperature can effect whether you catch a cold. Getting chilled lowers one's immunity, making it more difficult for the body to fight off the virus. The number of respiratory illnesses increases with excessive exposure to low temperatures. This increase occurs both anecdotally and scientifically, and whether it is backed by solid theoretical reasoning (it occurred even before van Leeuwenhoek).

I think the question "How does a solid lifeless piece of wood know to become "better" at..." is appropriate here because it highlights exactly why this "theory" doesn't make any sense. It is romanticization of musical instruments. How poetic it is to believe that a well crafted instrument has the magical & anthropomorphic property of adjusting and changing how it sounds due to the way it has been played. I get it. It's a charming notion and I want to believe in it too.

But the reality is, wood is hard & rigid structures of dead & dried cell walls of plant fiber. It vibrates a little when played, which produces the sound, but no amount of vibration from being played is going to change its structure in any way. If the vibrations were indeed powerful enough to cause some structural change, that would be a destructive change not a constructive one that adds to the tone.

My cold & infection analogy was more along the lines of how before the widespread awareness of viruses people simply thought being cold caused the cold. Sure, cold environments probably do affect the body's capabilities and it also has to do with how cold weather may cause people to gather indoors in closely knit spaces moreso than in the heat. But it's not a cause of infection. The root cause is the presence of the virus and its hostile takeover of our cells which can occur both in the presence or absence of cold temperatures. Also, simply being cold in the absence of the virus won't ever lead to the infection. Does it seem like I'm splitting hairs on this? Yes I am; but I think at the very least we need to critically break down all the possibilities and debunk the ones that don't make sense so we eventually get closer to the plausible answers.

In my assessment so far, the main factors are the ones I mentioned before.

 

[Wiggy]

Music is romance. We try to convince ourselves it that is "science" but those long before us created instruments that were pleasing and soothing to hear. That was their goal. I thank them.

I live in the sub $300 world and I'm happy. I don't even consider "opening up" but I do believe it takes months (sometimes years) for a uke, with the strings on it being tuned to pitch, to settle in. The neck flatness changes, the soundboard may cup a bit, the bridge/saddle may tip, and the tuner gears wear in. I'm sure there are more I'm not aware of.

Any changes in setup (typically nut slot depth, saddle height) may affect some of the above in a perceptible way

When a ukulele is in tune with itself and harmonizing (strings exciting other strings) it is a thrill.

 

[kissing]

Music is romance. We try to convince ourselves it that is "science" but those long before us created instruments that were pleasing and soothing to hear. That was their goal. I thank them.

I live in the sub $300 world and I'm happy. I don't even consider "opening up" but I do believe it takes months (sometimes years) for a uke, with the strings on it being tuned to pitch, to settle in. The neck flatness changes, the soundboard may cup a bit, the bridge/saddle may tip, and the tuner gears wear in. I'm sure there are more I'm not aware of.

Any changes in setup (typically nut slot depth, saddle height) may affect some of the above in a perceptible way

When a ukulele is in tune with itself and harmonizing (strings exciting other strings) it is a thrill.

I don't deny that music is romance. Science and the art of music aren't at odds with each other.

I just denounce the notion that many people seem to blindly that ukuleles and guitars "open up" over time because the soundboard becomes better at being a soundboard because you play it. This is not supported by physics and reality; unless someone can explain it plausibly in those terms.

The wood vibrates when played, and those vibrations produce soundwaves that project and bounce around in the instrument's soundbox and projects as the instrument's overall sound. The vibrational energy exerted onto the soundboard is nowhere near the threshold at which the wooden fibers become "looser" or better at vibrating like breaking in some kind of mechanical tool or machine.

For the sake of argument, if vibrations from playing an instrument were indeed powerful enough to loosen the wood fibers to vibrate better; then it will actually be a chaotic change of the wood becoming fatigued and broken.

There is a case to be made that an instrument fluctuates and 'settles' throughout its lifetime.
But those changes aren't necessarily always positive; and the changes will have more to do with the action, relief/bow of neck and string condition at a point in time. These are physical changes that can be changed through setups and is not an inherent property of the soundboard opening up in any shape or form.

 

[70sSanO]

The best thing about these arguments is that Webster has not created any words that will change an opinion of something that neither side can scientifically prove.

John

 

[kkimura]

Oddly enough a Martin concert I used to own sounded better after a crack.

Sorry, I gotta ask. Is the crack closed or did it open up?

 

[kerneltime]

Sorry, I gotta ask. Is the crack closed or did it open up?

I pulled it out from the case one day and was impressed with the low end which seemed a lot better than what I remember and soon I noticed a crack below the bridge to the edge. Got it repaired the sound changed back a bit. I think it sounded amazing with the crack. On a similar note, I own a vintage Martin 1k that sounded amazing and had cracks, I wanted it to be restored. The sound is still amazing but it a bit tighter than before.

 

[ampeep]

Didn't have an opinion on this before. I bought a Terada classical guitar in 1974 for $100; it didn't sound anywhere as good as Takamine classical guitars that my friends had. Played it for a few years, then not at all until 3 years ago when I started playing with ukulele groups. Was amazed it sounded much better than before! Not as good as the Takamines, but the difference was not as great as before.

Based on my one experience, the sound did improve. Only thing is it took over 40 years.

 

[John Colter]

The biggest variable in all this is that, over a period of several years, the hearing ability of all adult humans changes - it gets worse. That is likely to affect the way we perceive sound of a ukulele far more than any changes resulting from the aging of the instrument.

 

[Graham Greenbag]

Yuck. Some of the comments to others are about as discounting and nasty as I have seen on this site.

Yep, folk do get like that on forums and it’s sad to see that creeping in here. Where’s our collective feeling of Aloha going?

I haven’t kept in touch with the thread, it’s not a pointless discussion but I already have my own answer based on my own experience … My answer need only be ‘right’ for me - it doesn’t injure anyone else - and if my bother or sister has the alternative view then that’s OK - providing they, like I, respect alternative beliefs and refrain from proselytising.

Sometimes, it is better to be nice than have to be right.

Though I sometimes slip and forget that’s absolutely so. I find that that’s a very good rule of thumb, one that I wish that I’d discovered years ago.

 

[kissing]

I feel digressing too much from the original topic may be something that mods of any forum would find modworthy and will just say I agree to disagree. If you believe ukuleles open up, I respect that. I have my own theories which I have expressed already and remain open minded to any new compelling theories and tests may come my way in the future.