Done! New members and marketplace

[EDW]

It seems there have been a number of instances of brand new members posting questionable or bogus sale listings in the marketplace. Perhaps there should be a waiting period and a number of postings required before new members are able to post in the marketplace.

 

[Kermit80]

Can we stop this offshoot of the conversation please? We're talking about something specific. Please get back to the actual topic.

having been quoted I replied but if we are OT I shut up

 

[TimWilson]

having been quoted I replied but if we are OT I shut up

Nothing personal, friend. And certainly not directed only at you! I'd have intervened a lot earlier, except that I was writing my own reply to the thread, and it kept getting longer as I wanted to incorporate more of what people were talking about.

My point is that I'm less interested in talking about theoreticals on this thread, and more interested in getting closer to the solution to a very different kind of problem than we've had to face before. Scammers are upping their game, and we have to do the same. Simple as that.

We're only talking about the how of it.

 

[EDW]

In his reports, he said, "This is a sales site, not a commentary site", and I honestly laughed out loud. Clearly new here. LOL Sorry, son. There are plenty of places to sell without chatter. Avail yourself of all of them. This ain't that.

If you don't want to actually be a member of the community, you need to be somewhere else.

I think your ideas about the marketplace are right on point. I agree that if someone had an issue with the ideas you have proposed, then they are not here to be a part of the community. What they want is an outlet to sell without the hassle or cost of other sites or their own website. This is a great site to share ideas and information with the marketplace just serving as one of the features. (for some it is like the back alley to feed their habit! )

I like that this site provides a place where regular members can feel safe to buy and sell. Thanks for all you are doing to make this a truly outstanding site!

 

[ZaBeth]

I think your ideas about the marketplace are right on point. I agree that if someone had an issue with the ideas you have proposed, then they are not here to be a part of the community. What they want is an outlet to sell without the hassle or cost of other sites or their own website. This is a great site to share ideas and information with the marketplace just serving as one of the features. (for some it is like the back alley to feed their habit! )

I like that this site provides a place where regular members can feel safe to buy and sell. Thanks for all you are doing to make this a truly outstanding site!

Maybe something like this is the statement that should be made:

Ukulele Underground is, first and foremost, a community of ukulele enthusiasts. As a member, you are free to either post or lurk. However, if you'd like to sell something from your collection, Ukulele Underground requests that you have

1. been a member for X-length of time
2. participated in X-number of conversations (or have posted X-number of times)

I personally don't like the idea of monetizing Marketplace postings.

 

[Milesaway71]

Great thread.
I've re-emerged from sidelines to internet Uke-dom here at UU after half a decade. My home base was Fleamarket Music back in first decade of the 21st century; entered UU about 6-7 months ago.
It coincided with covid afterburn, and the re-emergence of my UAS. Having bought and sold a bunch on FMM (as MLKauai) time has marked a few changes.

When a nominally self sufficient uker gets satisfied with their daily drivers, unicorns, whatevers they don't feel the need to play on the uke market. Or even converse in my case (boo ok... although missing out on a lot of important discussions I did focus more on my repetoire if you will)

With the demise (imo) of FMM popularity (? I may be wrong) 1. one loses ones cred in matters involving money and buy/sell from a distance.
2. The difficulty of shipping in private transactions can be intimidating (seems it was a lot easier back then when I used USPS Priority)
3. New rules of the road? not sure today; back then we used a "right of return" ... oh and I do recall the "if you're not buying, don't comment" comments now that I think about it; LOL.

Not sure... do some platforms include buyers insurance to ensure against fraud?

 

[TimWilson]

I also wanted

I personally don't like the idea of monetizing Marketplace postings.

Which is why NOBODY is proposing that. There is zero interest in that.

Time limits don't work (you have to be a member for X months), because time + zero posts doesn't do anything to establish credibility. I can tell you that the vast majority of spam posts we see are not from people who joined that day. Waiting for several months before sneaking in the spam is far more typical.

For that matter, it's rarely their first post that shows their spammy colors. It's usually the second or third, which is why we require more than one post before allowing unmoderated posting.

So no options on the post requirement, imo. Has to be there. We don't know anything about anyone until after they post more than a couple of times.

But I do get that some people are not chatty. I also get that some of our most respected members primarily participate in the Marketplace, just as there are others who participate primarily in SOTU. That's fine. If your primary goal from the community is to find a circle of people with whom you feel safe buying, selling, and trading, then it might indeed take some time to get to five posts...

...although again, if they can't figure out "Hmm, people seem to be commenting on pretty ukes, maybe I could do that and wish some folks GLWTS", then maybe they don't really want to be here? Membership matters.

But people do membership different ways, according to their personal styles. That's why I think it's reasonable to offer an alternative to requiring conversation. A one-time only, entirely optional fee of $5 applied only to first-time posters who don't have 5 posts is such an alternative, and has nothing to do with monetizing the marketplace.

Although for the record, I don't have a problem with that, and if the choice was "raise more money or turn off the forum", guess what I'd choose? But we're not talking theoretically here, and we're not talking about a new revenue stream. I'm proposing two remarkably low barriers to entry, and you can pick which path to take. It's all part of the Choose Your Own Adventure UU ethos.

 

[TerryM]

First, I'll confess to not having read the entire thread, skimming some of the posts. But can I take a step back and ask: What's the problem we're trying to solve?

Tim posted that he regularly catches and blocks scam sales threads. That's news to me and surely a problem, but in the time I've been here, I only know of a single instance where a member got burned, and I don't remember if that was even via UU. Can anyone please enlighten me on any actual successful scams? It seems we do a good job of jumping on those before damage is done.

I will also confess to having joined forums in the past when I wanted to buy or sell something. One had a minimum post requirement that I found onerous but stuck it out. Maybe that's selfish, but in every case my interest in the forum subject is what brought me to the site and kept me there, not the transaction.

In a hobby where many of the enthusiasts are aging out and there is interest in attracting new members (true with my local uke club), I just think any impediment to entry can be detrimental to new blood.

I suppose I've been lucky to have never had a transaction go south or lose $ on eBay, CL or several other forums, so I can't speak from a perspective of having been burned, but again, is there a real problem or are we fixing something that isn't broken? Real question, not trying to make my point.

I'm fine with whatever the collective decides, just voicing my 2¢.

 

[TimWilson]

Tim posted that he regularly catches and blocks scam sales threads. That's news to me and surely a problem

My point is that I catch a lot, but I can't catch them all. Spammers and scammers use automated tools, and so should we. That is, we have them, but they haven't been deployed for this particular use case, so that's what I'm going to do.

I agree though that it's possible to overstate the problem...but it's also much more a problem in the past couple of months than it has been before. Scammers are getting cleverer, including the recent example of Photoshopping somebody else's "name and date" photo.

That is, I'm not trying to fix anything at all for the marketplace as it functions as a whole. It's working great. I'm just trying to prevent new members from posting in a members-only community forum until we can get some general indication as to their generally good intent. It's not only not too much to ask -- I think we're being irresponsible by NOT asking for proof of good intent.

This obviously wasn't always necessary, and in the interest of not over-stating the problem, or creating a solution that extends farther than the problem requires, I'm positing:

-- The problem is the occassional, but increasingly common, new member whose only reason for joining is to attempt scamming our members.
-- The solution is addressed at them, and only them: talk to us a little, or pay a token-sized token to give us an opportunity to establish basic bona fides. The end.

NOTHING will change AT ALL for anyone who's ever posted in the Marketplace already, or for anyone with more than five posts.

Narrow problem, narrow solution.

 

[Patty]

If you want to sell a uke without being part of a community, there are a gazillion places to do that. Facebook, eBay, Reverb, so many more. We're different than those markets are, so we should have a different standard than "Sign in and start selling."

Exactly. This is not reverb. It’s a community.

So if a guest viewer sees your for sale notice and decides to join UU immediately to start a buying process, are you proposing that they will have to post 100 messages or wait a month or pay a $5 toll or some other onerous thing, before you will deign to let them talk to you

Not at all. This is about fake SELLERS. People out to defraud; not people out to buy an instrument.

 

[TimWilson]

This is about fake SELLERS. People out to defraud; not people out to buy an instrument.

Good catch, Patty! Sorry I'd missed that, but yeah, no proposed changes for buyers.

 

[Patty]

How about this. Any new or very recent members who want to post a FOR SALE thread in the Marketplace must first be members for such-and-such a time period, and must have posted X number of times, before selling.

Then, they must check a box stating they’ve read and complied with all the Marketplace rules.

AND... They must agree to provide, by PM, to any interested buyer their name, address, & phone number and be willing to speak personally to the prospective buyer before any deal is completed.

Additionally, all payments for newbie transactions should be PP G&S, to protect buyers.

 

[TimWilson]

How about this. Any new or very recent members who want to post a FOR SALE thread in the Marketplace must first be members for such-and-such a time period, and must have posted X number of times, before selling.

I don't like time limit all by itself for reasons I mention above, but I LOVE combining it with minimum number of posts! Nobody NEEDS to sell TODAY. In the unlikely event that they really, really do, plenty of other outlets are ready for 'em!

Then, they must check a box stating they’ve read and complied with all the Marketplace rules.

I don't like asking people to lie, which is what I think all these checkboxes are doing.

But you know what? Built-in to the system is an introductory letter, but we don't currently have such a letter composed, so nothing is being sent. I've been meaning to do that, though! I'd been thinking about pointing people toward filling out their profile pages, pointing them to popular threads and forums (Seasons, baby!), and now, I'm thinking it will also include a "Thinking about selling? Here's what you need to know."

AND... They must agree to provide, by PM, to any interested buyer their name, address, & phone number and be willing to speak personally to the prospective buyer before any deal is completed.

I like this! It would still be up to buyers to make the request, but any buyer who doesn't provide it, the listing gets cancelled. Easy.

Additionally, all payments for newbie transactions should be PP G&S, to protect buyers.

Makes sense to me!

Thanks, Patty!

 

[kkimura]

Is that worth the risk of a legitimate member getting screwed out of $900? People on these forums tend to trust one another, and aren’t always on the lookout for “wonky” warning signs.

Yes, having a member lose $$$ to a scammer is not what anyone of us wants. The question in my mind is how much safety is reasonable for a forum to gaurentee?
I’m reminded of my first visit to the Acropolis when I was in the Navy. Very steep and worn stone steps wit no guard rails or attempt to prevent the unwary from slipping off and down into the homes several meters down the cliff. Completely opposite of what you would expect in the US.
Long story short, at some point we need to take responsibility for our own safety by being aware of our surroundings.

 

[Patty]

Yes, having a member lose $$$ to a scammer is not what anyone of us wants. The question in my mind is how much safety is reasonable for a forum to gaurentee?
I’m reminded of my first visit to the Acropolis when I was in the Navy. Very steep and worn stone steps wit no guard rails or attempt to prevent the unwary from slipping off and down into the homes several meters down the cliff. Completely opposite of what you would expect in the US.
Long story short, at some point we need to take responsibility for our own safety by being aware of our surroundings.

I see your point, but do we really want UU to provide a venue where our members can get robbed? We can put up those guard rails.

 

[kkimura]

I see your point, but do we really want UU to provide a venue where our members can get robbed? We can put up those guard rails.

Guard rails will provide a sense of security and announce that the forum has taken steps to protect the safety of its users.
However I cannot in good conscience say that they will be 100% effective.
Sadly, scammers will feel that meeting the requirements of the “guard rails” is a small price to pay in exchange for their bogus sale profits.
We will still need to be vigilant.

 

[EDW]

Guard rails will provide a sense of security and announce that the forum has taken steps to protect the safety of its users.
However I cannot in good conscience say that they will be 100% effective.
Sadly, scammers will feel that meeting the requirements of the “guard rails” is a small price to pay in exchange for their bogus sale profits.
We will still need to be vigilant.

I agree, but it a step in the right direction. This is a case where I think about the saying "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good". Tim and the other folks involved in running the site are very actively involved in making great improvements here. If there are problems, I am sure that tweaks can be made down the road.

 

[rainbow21]

So if a guest viewer sees your for sale notice and decides to join UU immediately to start a buying process, are you proposing that they will have to post 100 messages or wait a month or pay a $5 toll or some other onerous thing, before you will deign to let them talk to you so they can buy the item you have for sale? Or do you want to have a set up so they can contact you easily and you can check them out and work out a deal if they are bon fide?

And what if that is their one and only post ever, to arrange to pay you $1000 for the item you have had listed for a month with no response, should we vilify them and use them as an example to avoid every other new member?

What is the vision for the MarketPlace. Do we want to make it easy for buyers to bring the best ukes on the planet, or do we just want the cast-offs from other UU members? I would like to see the best ukes on the planet personally, and I ignore most of the cast-offs that appear for sale. I am very happy to welcome bona fide sellers who make short or long visit to UU to sell a great instrument into the UU membership. It should be as streamlined and as easy as possible for the bona fide sellers, so we get the best stuff ahead of Reverb, eBay and FaceBook.

I suggest that UkeTalk is about community and the MarketPlace is about serious folding cash money business. Two separate entities, we can easily keep separate.

Your post is where the terms "cast-offs from other UU members" and "best ukes on the planet" entered the discussion.

The best ukes on the planet are the best ukes for each member, not the most expensive. For some the best ukes will be low priced, for other they may have higher prices. "Best" is not about Ukulele Friend style sellers, it is about what the member sees as the "best". Anyone who takes some time to check out all the threads on the "best" ukes will see that. I would like to see ukes coming into the marketplace that are what the members would like to buy.

There have been so many ukes made since 2000, where are they all? It would be great to see them coming out of dusty cupboards and onto the MarketPlace.

So you are saying we have never seen buying scams? Buying and selling are part of the same process, you can't have one without the other. Onerous rules keep out both.

Your expanded definition of "best ukes on the planet" is now defined as "best ukes for each member". Now I find this definition to be totally outside the realm of this (and any?) discussion. It is meaningless nonsense.

One point that Tim has brought up (likely not in this thread) is that this is a member to member marketplace. It is not for commercial resellers or people looking only to sell for profit without regard for the buyer. We know that there are many places to look to acquire our own "best" ukulele.

I like our marketplace as this member to member benefit. I have sold a few and purchased a few (and been scammed) on this site. I like how we do business. And we have a thread, "somebody buy this..." that even points out desirable ukuleles on other sites that tempt us.

So I don't need this forum marketplace to go beyond the collections of other members. This discussion on strengthening the member to member aspect a little is a good one and headed in the right direction for the most part.

 

[Patty]

So you are saying we have never seen buying scams? Buying and selling are part of the same process, you can't have one without the other. Onerous rules keep out both.

How can you get scammed by new members who BUY ukes on the marketplace? They send you the payment, then you ship the uke. You don't ship it out before you get paid.

The danger here--the one we've all been discussing and the problem we're trying to address--is the new "member" who fraudulently claims he has a uke to SELL. The prospective buyer send the payment and the new "member" disappears with the money.

 

[Eggs_n_Ham]

oh, it's easy to explain (I'm referring to paywalls in general): if you can afford to pay you can access otherwise not. Thus are discriminatory.

Well, if you're posting an expensive uke for sale, you should be able to post up half a sawbuck for the initial ad. Maybe a small fee is good for the overall running of the forum- maybe not, I don't know. I've yet to pony up for membership but plan to because this forum is so amazing. But that's beside the point. Having some sort of requirement, "ten posts" or "ten likes" before participating in marketplace at the very least- inconveniences would be scammers.

 

[Milesaway71]

Craigslist post to sell a car here is $5 for 30 days.