ukulele theory for noobs discussion thread

[uke puke]

the short answer: yes.

for the most part, yes you would play only the notes of the C scale because the chords being played are in the key of C. but there are instances where you can play a sharp/flat note in there. many times you can bend a note (pushing the string up to change the pitch) to make it a half tone higher and it will sound good even though that note does not fall in the key.

one of my guidelines when i improvise a solo is to make sure that each note that falls on an actual beat is in the key. between those beats, i can pretty much play whatever i want. but thats just my own style. it is neither right or wrong.

but having a good foundation will open this up to you. so yes, start out with only the C scale when playing in the key of C. as you become proficient, experiment more and more with what sounds good to your ear.

Awesome. Thanks for the quick response. Your doing us all a huge favor.

 

[Joe H]

Now we have a D but we've lost the C. Where can we get a C from? Well the A is doubled at the moment so let's change one of them into a C. Take the first string and move that to the 3rd fret to get a C. There we are, we got the familair 2223 and a D7 containing all 4 of its notes (A, D, F#, C).

Thanks! That cleared things up for me.

 

[cpatch]

Close but not quite. A C7 chord comes from the scale of F I'm afraid...so pick 1, 3, 5, and 7 starting on C from this scale and you get C, E, G and Bb. (Note Bb rather than B)

You're absolutely right, of course (although I didn't realize the 7th came from a different scale...I just knew it had a 135b7 formula in the scale it's named for), my mistake. I've corrected my original post.

You can hear the relationship between a C7 and F. Play a C7 chord and listen to it. It wants to go somewhere - sounds unfinished yes? Now play an F chord. Ahhh! That's where it wanted to go. Please try it. It's really obvious.

That's pretty cool...thanks for the full explanation.

 

[Howlin Hobbit]

(...I didn't realize the 7th came from a different scale...I just knew it had a 135b7 formula in the scale it's named for), my mistake. I've corrected my original post.

That's not really a mistake. It, and the rest of the similar formulas, work fine.

 

[Dibblet]

No, there's nothing wrong with the b7 formula, that's just another way of looking at it. It was getting a B natural in a C7 that was the problem.

On the other hand I do prefer to describe C7th chord as coming from the F scale since that starts to introduce the concept of functional harmony.

 

[Ayuna]

Thanks NukeDoc for this nice work.

I played guitar and piano when i was a child, but haven't touched an instrument for some years now. I just started with my ukulele, but your thread really helped me to refresh all this theory stuff.

 

[Tutchi]

Confused

Origional post by NukeDoc:-

"now play them from the open C on the 3rd string all the way to the high C on the 1st string in order from lowest note to highest note. you just played a scale in the key of G on your ukulele. and now you understand why it is a scale in the key of G."

I have really enjoyed this thread by NukeDoc but for some reason or other he has left me behind with this paragraph To my thinking if I play from c to c I have played the key of c. Please put up with the rambling's of an old codger and explain it like an Idiot's Guide to Theory for me. Thank you.


tutchi

 

[rabbit]

This exercise is called 'harmonizing the natural scale'
and illustrates how the family of chords for any given
scale is created & related:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
c d e f g a b c
e f g a b c d e
g a b c d e f g
b c d e f g a b

1 C maj 7
2 D min7
3 E min7
4 F maj7
5 G7
6 A min7
7 B dim7

This can be done with any scale, note the pattern.
I hope this isn't unwelcome, too geeky.
If so, my apologies.

 

[Dibblet]

Hey rabbit,

The 7 chord is Bm7b5 not Bdim7. Somtimes it's called a 1/2 diminished 7th chord.

It's another case where the theoreticians want to hang on to their elite status so they deliberately make the system inconsistent to confuse you.

A diminished seventh chord isn't a diminished triad with a minor seventh on top like all the other seventh chords. It's a diminished triad with a diminished seventh on top. B, D, F, Ab for a B diminished seventh.

Just to confuse you even further an C diminished seventh is C, Eb, Gb, Bbb. Yep, a double flat. The note is the same as A on the fretboard but it's name is Bbb in this case. Most people call it an A and even write it that way but really to be a 7th it has to be some sort of B note so it comes out as Bbb.

 

[NukeDOC]

Origional post by NukeDoc:-

"now play them from the open C on the 3rd string all the way to the high C on the 1st string in order from lowest note to highest note. you just played a scale in the key of G on your ukulele. and now you understand why it is a scale in the key of G."

I have really enjoyed this thread by NukeDoc but for some reason or other he has left me behind with this paragraph To my thinking if I play from c to c I have played the key of c. Please put up with the rambling's of an old codger and explain it like an Idiot's Guide to Theory for me. Thank you.


tutchi

just because you start on C, doesnt me you are playing a scale in the key of C. because there is an F# note in the sequence that you are playing (E string 2nd fret), this is in the key of G. you can play a scale in the key of C now, by a simple modification to what you just played... when you get to the E string, you play the open E, then FIRST fret (making it an F), then the 3rd fret (G).

this is why the exercise calls for you to first find which notes, within the key your are playing, fall on which frets of each string. so...

key of G: G, A, B, C, D, E, F#
key of C: C, D, E, F, G, A, B

you can rearrange those notes any way you like. but you will notice that the only difference is the F in key of C, and the F# in key of G.

one other way of doing this is to memorize the "shape" of the scale you are playing. in this case, C would be a good start:

first set of vertical lines is the nut
A*| |*|*|... A, B, C
E*|*| |*|... E, F, G
C*| |*| |... C, D
G | | | |

now, folowing that "shape" you can move it up the fretboard to find other scales, originating from that "root note". key of D for example. D is two frets up from C, so you would start this scale on the 2nd fret:

again, first vertical line is the nut
A| |*| |*|*|... B, C#, D
E| |*|*| |*|... F#, G, A
C| |*| |*| |... D, E
G| | | | | |

once you get down the method of using the root note on your C string, you can figure out different shapes by using them in relation to where the root note falls on other strings. lets try the key of G:

again, first vertical line is the nut
A*| |*|*| |... A, B, C
E*| |*|*| |... E, F#, G (root note falls on this string)
C*| |*| |*|... C, D, E
G | | | | |

now you can move this up in the same way, by using the shape in relation to where the root note falls on the E string. so lets try the key of A. we know that A is two frets up from G, so we move the whole shape up two frets and come up with this:

again, first vertical line is the nut
A| |*| |*|*| |... B, C#, D
E| |*| |*|*| |... F#, G#, A (root note is here)
C| |*| |*| |*|... D, E, F#
G| | | | | | |

 

[cpatch]

just because you start on C, doesnt me you are playing a scale in the key of C. because there is an F# note in the sequence that you are playing (E string 2nd fret), this is in the key of G. you can play a scale in the key of C now, by a simple modification to what you just played... when you get to the E string, you play the open E, then FIRST fret (making it an F), then the 3rd fret (G).

this is why the exercise calls for you to first find which notes, within the key your are playing, fall on which frets of each string. so...

key of G: G, A, B, C, D, E, F#
key of C: C, D, E, F, G, A, B

you can rearrange those notes any way you like. but you will notice that the only difference is the F in key of C, and the F# in key of G.

It may help to remember (from NukeDOC's tutorial) that a scale is defined by the distance between each pair of notes in the sequence. The pattern is:

WWHWWWH

(Where W represents a whole note and H represents a half note). If you look at a piano keyboard you'll notice the following pattern of black and white keys:

__B___B_____B___B___B
W__W__W_W__W__W__W_W

The distance between each pair of adjacent keys (including the black ones where present) is a half note. The pattern for the distance between the white keys is, surprise, WWHWWWH (where W and H are whole note and half note again).

The notes on the piano are:

_C#_D#___F#_G#_A#
C__D__E_F__G__A__B_C

The white notes, therefore, are the key of C.

So what does this have to do with the ukulele? Nothing, other than to give a more visual representation of the scale and to show that the same scale rules are shared by most Western instruments. You can also use it to see why the G scale has an F#:

We want WWHWWWH starting with G. The distance between G and A is a whole note, so that works. A to B is a whole note, B to C is a half. So far, so good. Now we need WWWH. C to D and D to E are whole notes, but E to F is a half. E to F# is a whole note so that's what we need. We can use the final half note to check that we've done everything right...if we have we should end up back at the note the scale is based on and in this case we do...F# to G is a half note. So we end up with:

G A B C D E F#

 

[Tutchi]

Theory

Thanks guys. Will have to study some more and see if this old brain of mine absorbs the nitty gritty Still enjoying the thread very much and it has cleared up a lot of grey area's.

Tutchi

 

[NukeDOC]

Thanks guys. Will have to study some more and see if this old brain of mine absorbs the nitty gritty Still enjoying the thread very much and it has cleared up a lot of grey area's.

Tutchi

nothing wrong with that. remember, this is about a year's worth of weekly lessons if i were teaching it. so the average person isnt going to get it overnight. heck, it took me 15years to finally make sense of this all. and about 30% of all of that sense came from picking the brains of some of the great ones here on UU.

 

[rabbit]

Dibblet,
Thanks for the correction,
I'll go for that!

rabbit

 

[zataonline]

Thanks Nukedoc

but I still confuse about how you figure out the other shapes ???? and what do you mean by using them in relation to where the root note falls on the other strings.

"once you get down the method of using the root note on your C string, you can figure out different shapes by using them in relation to where the root note falls on other strings. lets try the key of G:"

Code:

How and Where is this shape come from.???

again, first vertical line is the nut
A*| |*|*| |... A, B, C
E*| |*|*| |... E, F#, G (root note falls on this string)
C*| |*| |*|... C, D, E
G | | | | |

In the Key of G why we begin the note with C? why don't start on open G on the 1string?


Thank you.

 

[NukeDOC]

Thanks Nukedoc

but I still confuse about how you figure out the other shapes ???? and what do you mean by using them in relation to where the root note falls on the other strings.

"once you get down the method of using the root note on your C string, you can figure out different shapes by using them in relation to where the root note falls on other strings. lets try the key of G:"

Code:

How and Where is this shape come from.???

again, first vertical line is the nut
A*| |*|*| |... A, B, C
E*| |*|*| |... E, F#, G (root note falls on this string)
C*| |*| |*|... C, D, E
G | | | | |

In the Key of G why we begin the note with C? why don't start on open G on the 1string?


Thank you.

you find the root notes by being able to find what note you are playing on each string. so if you know that if you press the A string on the 2nd fret, you are playing a B note, then you are on the right track. if you dont know this then you gotta go back and make sure you do before any of this makes sense.

when you can find each note and identify it, simply by knowing the order of the notes that i mentioned in the first lesson, then you can identify the notes included in a certain key by using the WWHWWWH formula. so the notes in the key of G are:
G, A, B, C, D, E, F#
but you DONT HAVE TO start at G. you can write it out as:
A, B, C, D, E, F#, G
or in this case:
C, D, E, F#, G, A, B
regardless of what order you are playing it in, those are still the notes in the key of G. no matter where you play it on the fretboard. so when you play the E string at the 7th fret, you are playing a B note... still in the key of G.

the shapes come from the other notes in the same finger position that fall within the key. i use the root note as a point of origin. so when you use the shape that you posted, you should remember how it looks (kinda like how you memorize how a chord is shaped) in relation to the G note you have on the 2nd string. so just because you are starting on the C note, because you have an F# in there, it is actually in the key of G.

 

[zataonline]

I understand the concept of WWHWWWH formula for the Major key.

but what i'm looking for is like a guitar scale pattern (picture attach)

I just wondering that uke has it or not because the pattern would help and know where are the notes in any key for the entire fretboard. (Correct me if I misunderstand)

Thank you very much Nukedoc.. You are my master now..:shaka:

 

[NukeDOC]

I understand the concept of WWHWWWH formula for the Major key.

but what i'm looking for is like a guitar scale pattern (picture attach)

I just wondering that uke has it or not because the pattern would help and know where are the notes in any key for the entire fretboard. (Correct me if I misunderstand)

Thank you very much Nukedoc.. You are my master now..:shaka:

the picture you posted is basically a cheat sheet of everything that i just went over. the little pictures on the right are broken down into sections. and within each of those sections you will find at least one root note in the scale. now, when you look at that section, you basically memorize where the other notes are in relation to the root note. much harder on guitar, since you have 6 strings. whereas on the ukulele, for the most part, when starting off, you are using 3 strings. the 4th string's use will vary whether it is strung low or high G.

if you look closely enough, you will notice that some of the shapes on the G, B, and E strings of the guitar are the same that we made with the C, E, and A strings on the ukulele.

so if you are wondering if there is a cheat sheet like that made for ukulele, then i dont know. but wouldnt you rather be able to eventually figure it out in your head on your own, rather than look at a sheet everytime you needed to use it? im not saying a cheet sheet is bad. but by learning this, you wont need one. but if you really want to... make one of your own. by drawing out the fretboard in the same way (four lines instead of 6) as that pic you posted, and plotting the positions out, it will help you learn it quicker (i have my students do the same thing).

 

[1014]

Bump to the top. too good of a discussion to be kept down.

 

[Danuke]

Hi all

I'm new to the forum, and to music for that matter (or at least trying to play and understand it). Heres my intro

http://www.ukuleleunderground.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2&page=114

Thanks for the theory thread NukeDOC it's really got the old grey snotter between the ears working. I'd started on trying to work things out from Aldrines lessons and uke minutes and it's interesting to see how some of your methods seem to cross reference what I've found out from that. Hopefully that means I must be doing something right right?

Close but not quite. A C7 chord comes from the scale of F I'm afraid. This is done specially to make music theory more difficult and confuse the beginner. Music scholars really don't want newbies to be able to understand this stuff so they deliberately throw in some extra difficulties.

Here's how a scale of F goes. I've extended it a bit to the right to make it easier later.

F G A Bb C D E F G A Bb C D E etc

so pick 1, 3, 5, and 7 starting on C from this scale and you get C, E, G and Bb. (Note Bb rather than B)

You can hear the relationship between a C7 and F. Play a C7 chord and listen to it. It wants to go somewhere - sounds unfinished yes? Now play an F chord. Ahhh! That's where it wanted to go. Please try it. It's really obvious.

The full name for a 7th chord is a dominant 7th. "Dominant" is another name for the 5th note in a major scale. So a 7th is a chord built on the 5th degree of some scale. You have to go round the cycle of fifths back one or count down 5 steps from the root to find out what the scale is.

The dominant 7th is the most common 7th so we normally just call it a 7th chord. The chord build from the first note of the major scale is usually called a major seventh. Major scale - major seventh - that kind of makes sense even if it's inconsistent with the dominant seventh terminology. So the chord cpatch came up with (C E G B) is a CMaj7 chord.

I hope this hasn't thoroughly confused everyone. I learnt all this stuff when I was very young and I do realise it's incredibly difficult for those coming to it later.

This bit from Dibblet made me scratch my head for a while but I think I'm getting where it's coming from. I don't think I would have done with out the original thread. My question here is if the C7 belong in the F scale family what about the Cmin7 and Cmaj7? do they belong to the Cmin and Cmaj scales?

There's nothing wrong with your analysis.
Let's follow it through to it's conclusion.

1st string is an A so raise that by a tone to B 2nd fret.
2nd string is E which is the root so leave it alone
3rd string is a C so raise it to E - 4th fret
4th string is G so raise it to G# - 1st fret.

we get 1402 which is a valid E chord. It's not the one most commonly used though. There are typically many possibilities for a particular chord name. The E you are familiar with is probably 4442 - G#, E, G# B which is equally valid. You'll see that the difference is that the first has the E in twice whereas the second has the G# twice.

If I wanted to be difficult and use technical terms I could say that the E is doubled in the first voicing and the G# doubled in the second.

Wouldn't it be the B that's doubled in the second?

This exercise is called 'harmonizing the natural scale'
and illustrates how the family of chords for any given
scale is created & related:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
c d e f g a b c
e f g a b c d e
g a b c d e f g
b c d e f g a b

1 C maj 7
2 D min7
3 E min7
4 F maj7
5 G7
6 A min7
7 B dim7

This can be done with any scale, note the pattern.
I hope this isn't unwelcome, too geeky.
If so, my apologies.

I'm not sure if I'm getting this right but are you saying that if we play chords with these notes in them they go with a melody in the C scale? Why all 7's of some sort? do we just drop the last note and replace it with one of the others, preferably the root note, if we want just the straight major or minor chord? what happens with scales and chords with sharps and flats with this method? Looks like it could be handy if I knew how to use it. Sort of table of thirds!

The next bit I'm stuck on is the scales. I was trying to work out all the major scales with a lot of head scratching after ending up with double notes in scales and sharps and flats that don't exist. Then I found some stuff on the circle of fifths that really blew the mind but in the end I ended up with all the scales written down as in the circle of fifths. It was useful to see that as you went clockwise from C you got one more sharp each scale and as you went anti clockwise you get one more flat. And yes you do end up with a couple of sharps and flats at the bottom that don't exist which explains why in the chord chart in the back of my beginners book there are single cords for Gb and F#. I prefer the Gb way even though it's got a Cb that is actually a B. The other way has got an E# that's actually an F, just seems easier not to have any scales starting in a # seen as it would be the only one. Now when it comes to practising them is there a specific order to do them in? Start at C and work clockwise to Gb/F# go back to C and do the same anti clockwise? Do them alphabetically? Also I sort of get what Tutchi is struggling with. Would it be easier to start on the root note and finish on the root note to start off with then start playing past it into the next octave before you start starting off on the lowest note you can on the fret board. I know it's a bit controversial but would it help to have a low G for this or are you better off working your way up the scales and jumping back to the high G string when you can to learn the notes on there? I know some scales are going to be more important to learn than others but I'm seeing it as a good way to learn the fret board. I can tell where the notes are but it takes time, more so as you get up the fret board. And in between all this I'll just go and have some fun strummin and pluckin what I can.

Thanks again NukeDOC and all the other guru's on here. Sorry to bombard you with such a huge post